Low-flap landing, at high speeds (150+kias)

[Benedettini]

To whom it may concern.

I mostly prefer my landings at high speeds for more economy,plus when the aprons are far end of runway(Normally I dont strain the limits on standard occasions)...Also don't forger the higher power requirement caused by motors at higher flaps.
As we simulate a VA, I ask my bosses if its ok to land our airframes at reduced flaps (Bac at 8 or 18 instead 26 or 45) and assumed Vat above 150 (way high for Bac but OK for runway,like AMS rwy 18R), as if company procedures let

Turker.

[Garry Russell]

Surely apart from training or in an emergency, the weight and possibly other conditions set your speeds and you should stick to them

[cstorey]

In the real world , no it will not be alright. The kinetic energy of the aeroplane varies with the square of its speed . Hence you will cause excess tyre and brake wear . You will also be liable to cause excessive brake and therefore tyre temperatures, which are a major factor with modern aircraft , particularly in extending turn round times . Further, your approach path will be excessively flat with consequent annoyance to those near the field, and alarm to ATC who will have their finger hovering over the crash button waiting for you to undershoot. Then, at the flare there will be a greatly increased tendency to float . Also, having put the wheels on the ground there will be much greater tendency for the aeroplane to fly again which is alarming and difficult to deal with particularly in a crosswind, and is particularly dangerous if it occurs despite the use of spoilers . The flight manual is devised after many hundreds of hours of flight testing , and the speeds , and configurations , are there to be adhered to

[Benedettini]

Once in Amsterdam RealFlyEvent we had 45kts headwind and had to Vref at 180kias flap15,and when no gust it was a compromisable touch,with B734. Except tyre heat, reversers and spoilers are enough to slowdown to half of runway,70kias. Approching COMT at flap60/80 and 110kias is painful at high revving motors burning excessive waste, and takes more time to touch!

[Garry Russell]

Lufthansa used to do a low drag fuel saving approach but they did it by staying high and clean then made a steep final using lower power with the decent maintaining speed and dropping gear and flaps at a late stage.

It didn't last long due to conflicts with other traffic but the landing speeds and flap settings/ power settings are laid down and are to be kept to, so the actual final and touchdown was standard.

Can you imaging the trouble if there was a crash and even though it may have had nothing to do with it, if the aircraft had not been flown by the book there would be big trouble

In the very early days, Viscounts made approaches on test with two engines shut down to save fuel when they realised how much jets burned at low and slow level.

They abandoned it as it was prejudicial to safety and made a go around impossible perhaps, but Viscount continued to fly the approach on two engines...the other two were just throttled back to flight idle and then shut down after the runway was cleared....I don't know if this was general practice later but was in the early days.

I once asked a friend who was a real BOAC VC 10 pilot if in heavy winds down the runway when the ground speed was much lower if they ever increased the airspeed to get more stability and his answer was "never, the speeds are in the book and that is what you do"...there were a few crashes of early jets on stable approaches caused by pilots doing their own thing and once the proper figures were used the incidents reduced almost completely.

[Benedettini]

In the book I dont see Vref for Flap 18 for BAC. It is not a MD11 that needs Cat A speed on approach, and would work OK for such lighter airframe.

Tell me when you are in groupflight, you have B777 behind you for final, ATC advises you hold 160 kts till 5 miles final. Its not such problem but after than I always struggle holding the GS motion when deploying flaps more, in such short distance (for me it is short), so I aim for about 140 kias(min) as reference, thus set flaps according to FMS or book, or flat, as experience. When flying those smaller beasts they will mainly Vref you around 120s, and yet flap 26 for BAC is so ok to flare it (But manual says its for 45, fix if im wrong). Imo 140 kias might do for Flap18 for such long runway (gotta land just side of PAPI, and weather should be OK,and straight ILS guidance). Maybe thats just me,who tries landing 737 at 155 kias like MD11 style (I managed it on EDDH flaps 15), when Flap30 ref on FMC shows 125. I want it also hurried to save time, and didnt have any virtual problems so far. Just like landing a cessna at flaps 10 or even 0, to IFR airport.

As we are using FS environment, we can make up own settings...good or not, but it works so far! I also think its really not convenient yet it makes fun, more profit,less time, still good touchdown and park in Real-FS-difficulty-setting... But if you are someone that wants to touchdown at as low as -1fpm instead anything below 100 (my standard),then it would be crap Harder to smoothen when faster...

Just my 10 dime 1 penny.
Turker.

[MALTBY D]

The old british jet airliners didn't generally have the option to choose flap setting for landing. They land at full flaps and any other setting would only be due to a problem.
One exception was the Comet, which could land on the 60 degree setting. The 80 deg isn't a 'real' flap setting anyway, as it only moves the smaller inner sections under the body (working like airbrakes).

With the Comet, don't try to approach all the way at full flaps. Only select 60 within say 4 nm and only select 80 with 1 nm to run and only if you need to lose excess speed.
If you pile on full flap too early you will have roaring engines. Which is true to real life.
And no deploying air brakes/lift dumpers on landing a Comet !

If you've not seen them, and are interested, there are some flying tips available through the manuals on my website.
http://www.dmflightsim.co.uk/html/Comet/Flying_Tips.htm
http://www.dmflightsim.co.uk/html/1-11/Flying_Tips.htm

As for VA flying, no one is looking so have fun. But try not to kill anyone.
And there's nothing bad about touching down in a big jet at 300 ft/min. Firm but fair!
I'm sure I once read that you could actually burst tyres by landing too gently.

DM

[Garry Russell]

The older types I've flown on dropped full flap lease than a mile and often crossing the threashold

David has a good point there about perhaps full flap is being deployed too early

[Chris Trott]

Most aircraft during that period didn't go full flaps until short final as the final flap setting was often solely to increase drag and could lead to a situation where if deployed too early would put the aircraft behind the power curve and unable to go around. The DC-4, DC-6, and DC-7 all reference not deploying final flap until 400 feet AGL. Similar for the Convairliners (CV-240/340/440) with a 500' AGL deployment altitude. The L.188 and CL-44 both reference not deploying final flap until on "short final" (the CL-44 saying 1 mile and the L.188 saying 1000 feeet AGL). The 707 manual from Matt Zagoren makes reference to not deploying full flaps until over the Middle Marker (about 1/2 mile final).

Also, remember you're flying an older airplane. If ATC tells you to do something you can't, tell them "unable". It's that simple. ATC has to accomodate you, not the other way around. When I worked for Air Tahoma with the CV-580s, one of the things our crews had to constantly remind ATC of was that with those aircraft, even at flight idle, you either descended or slowed down, not both. Asking them to hold their speed up on final was also not a good idea because of the lack of speed brakes. DC-8 pilots had this same problem as well since the DC-8 is only equipped with Ground Spoilers. Yeah, they could drop the gear at up to 320 KIAS, but for passenger comfort, that was for pilot mistakes only.

Also, as FSAirlines matures and is improved, your high speed landings will start to effect the status of the airplanes you fly. There have been plans in place to start recording more information about landings and factor them into the damage they do to the airplane's status. The faster you land and the harder you hit, the more it hurts the plane, just like in real life.

So, while it may be "faster" do it the wrong way, it's not safer and it's not cheaper. The manufacturers spend thousands of hours developing the manuals and approved speed charts. Any time you go outside those approved charts, you've become a test pilot, and by definition, you've just done something illegal as you're not allowed to conduct test flights while carrying revenue passengers and/or cargo.

[Benedettini]

Thanks for all replies...Well, I will then pretend those are mandatory. Informative content there!
Thank you. Just keeping the limitations, and likely not using finalflaps much Deployment on IM mostly makes me gain altitude and having to go around or steepdive :O On 4-5miles final I intend on landing config, Vref (+15 max).