Navigation in UK/Europe

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Highlander_821
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Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Highlander_821 »

I am trying to figure out how to use radio navigation in UK with high altitude airways. In the States, we have a wonderful site called skyvector.com, that gives you charts and tools you can use to plan and fly. Most importantly, when you look at the VORs that are associated with a given airway, the chart shows the correct radial degrees you need to stay on the airway (As in which radial should I be on as I fly away from the last VOR, and which radial should I be on as I fly towards the next VOR on the airway?) . I have pored over the NATS UK site, and the only enroute charts I can find show the airways and the VORS, but no numbers for the radials you would need to fly. So how would I go about getting that info so I can set the course correctly?

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dswanson
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by dswanson »

Hi,

I'm not sure about any published info but you can work out a plan within the simulator

Set up an IFR flightplan to include your departure and destination airports and chosen VORs - the plan will give you the headings
Regards,

Degsy

Highlander_821
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Highlander_821 »

Thanks, Degsy. I have tried that in the past. In my experience, the heading info you get from the FSX Navlog is unreliable. It can be anywhere from 2 to 8 degrees wrong from the course that the FSX ATC thinks you should be on. Enough wrong so that you can be following the Navlog info perfectly, bang on the radial that it says you should be on, and ATC will come on and turn you back to the magenta line on the GPS. When I finally found the www.skyvector.com site, using the numbers on the charts, I can be exactly where ATC expects me to be. Follow the Navlog numbers, and I can be off course by many miles.

Highlander_821
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Highlander_821 »

I think maybe I just don't quite understand your airways in the UK and Europe. In North America, the high altitude airways all have VORs along them. You stay on the airway by staying on the proper radials for the VORs.

It seems like yours are more complicated, often being associated with a radial from a VOR, but then changing direction at the next intersection with no obvious VOR or other naviad to follow from that point on. Ours always have the last or the next VOR to fly from or to. I don't really get how you are supposed to continue on an airway without a navaid to fly towards. Once you've already flown away from a VOR on radial 90, I'll call it ARB. You get to intersection EXMPL at 40 DME, then the Navlog says you turn to heading 120 to stay on that airway. Obviously you can't just switch to radial 120 from ARB, because you've already flown 40 miles from it. In the US, in a situation like that there is always going to be a VOR to fly onto a specific radial to be on the airway. But the UK system seems to not always have that. Have you guys done away with radio navigation altogether? Is it all RNAV?

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dswanson
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by dswanson »

Hi,

I'm not a real world pilot and usually fly VFR in the sim, so can't explain further. There are some real world pilots on this forum so perhaps one of them can help you. Generally I think that flight computers and GPS may be replacing VORs in the UK
Regards,

Degsy

Vc Ten
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Vc Ten »

I know exactly what you mean. I tend to use a sort of dead reconing when changing heading some way out from a radial Hopefully picking a new vor before any drift becomes significant ( I hate it when atc trys to push you back on course)
If vors are very sparse I resort to tracking the flight path with gps but that seems like cheating! How the european nav aids compare to real life, I dont know, but i bet microsoft put more effort in ensuring the home market was error free and closer to the real thing ;)
Ive found diferences in "real" charts and flight sim navlog but have the theory that the nav log, being part of the simulator any errors should reflect the same errors in its own virtual map
Cheers
Dale
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Benedettini
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Benedettini »

I use FSCommander to plan my routes...I intend to keep those VOR/NDB points on the airways,not DCT at all...And magnetic headings are totally true in FS. However,it is damn hard to be the only pilot,doing the manual flight yourself while using the charts and frq. datas in your hands (approach/SID/STARs too! ) and flying with bare autopilot, subsonic speeds...I had pain in :RN: :RN: :RN: :RN: past weekend when flying the damned Comet from Frankfurt to London, on IVAO, into windchanges, heavy traffic and BARE hands (if you call autopilot sufficient :D ), FOGGED, Cloudy!

Scary!
Rust and dust, is a must...
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Tomliner
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Tomliner »

Hi Highlander_821.I also am not a real world pilot but I 'fly' using out of date Aerad and Jeppesen charts bought from aviation enthusiast shops.Having said that,they are getting a bit more difficult tp obtain.This link http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/in ... d=355.html should give you a list of Uk stockists of current charts which you would have to buy.Hope this may help.ATB EricT :)
Now at the age where I know I like girls but can't remember why!

Benedettini
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Benedettini »

INFO: For UK, I had asked that question over IVAO UK too! And the answer is, UK Authority has not released any mapped ENR data. Yeah,I am afraid thats not available...for VFR,you need to pay. Or,reference the VFR terminal areas for VRPs and mandatory initial track-in/out.
But for VFR,I have something useful for your (VFR) routings and FREE!!!
http://www.tasoftware.co.uk/
Download Plan G from here,and enjoy VFR planning with this. You will have the layout of even prohibited/restricted/dangerous areas...Check tutorial vids too :) I use it,and apart from high memory usage (IF you constantly leave it tracking your FSX, that overloads your PC, my 2.13Ghz i3 4GB DDR3RAM suffered slightly,but sometimes heavily)

For EVERYTHING on paper, for aviation mapping: Register here for free,and get all charts/NOTAMs/ENRoutes / etc !
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/publicus ... u/login.do

You can also plan your FP via these :)
Rust and dust, is a must...
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Highlander_821
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Re: Navigation in UK/Europe

Post by Highlander_821 »

I joined the EAD site. I have a listing of all documents under the charts/enr filters, and there don't appear to be any actual charts with VOR radial info. I find it REALLY hard to believe that UK/EU airways are based on dead reckoning from intersection to intersection. I could believe everything being RNAV before I could believe that. But before GPS and INS and such, you must have at one time had to use radio navigation. I just don't see how you can fly an airway without a VOR every 150 miles or so. But you seem to have airways that start and terminate with nothing but intersections and no VORs at either end. Even if the VORs were where they needed to be, how can you fly a radial to stay on an airway if you don't know which radial the airway follows? The FSX NavLog information can be off by more than 5 degrees. It almost seems like it is just initial heading information. That's not enough to stay on course. The FSX ATC will decide that you are too far off course if the airway is supposed to track radial 186, but you choose to follow the Navlog info of 191. That will get you off course from the magenta line before long. But if you use real radial info from real charts in the USA, you will be DEAD ON the magenta line. Follow the Navlog headings, you will end up off course and ATC will make you turn.

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