The dreaded virus.

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TobyV
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by TobyV »

TSR2 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 17:21
My personal feeling is that much of the world has forgotten it is mortal. If the planet is a giant battery, we've plugged in too many light bulbs.
Agreed, the world is grossly overpopulated, in terms of what it can support, especially with the ever-growing resource and energy demands of each person. We've also reached a point where we think science and medicine should be able to cure everything and any deaths are too many. We will all depart one day, we just hope it's not too soon and not before achieving something useful, for ourselves, for others and maybe even for the environment.
TSR2 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 17:21
Yes, this current disease is a horrible thing, and I wouldn't wish anyone to be in pain or suffer. But to put some sort of perspective on it... Circa 500,000 died from the flu last year. Approx 650,000 people in the USA from Cancer last year. I think we're less than 100,000 globally for this. Trillions of dollars have been spent. Millions have lost their jobs and are unable to provide for their families.
Since the beginning I've been struggling with this whole lockdown / quarantine thing. In the months running up to this, I've been a bit depressed and things were just starting to look a little better before all this kicked off and everything got closed down. I cancelled a flight from Geneva to see my parents so as not to place myself or them (or by implication my grandparents who they might see, or indeed anyone else I might encounter) at increased risk. Some neighbours of mine, who are scientists and hail originally from a country that had Communism until 30 years ago, thought it absolutely right that we do this, but I pointed out the effect on society and more importantly the economy would be catastrophic and they looked rather blankly at me.

At a very low point the other week, my mind was persuaded that the lockdowns were futile, all we were doing was destroying jobs and livelihoods. The authoritarian police state seems to have risen almost everywhere in a flash and seems to be accepted by most people. I've read about homeless people "out after curfew" in SA being shot with rubber bullets and watched Indian police douse migrant workers, walking home to their villages, in bleach. Many in developing countries will starve due to their inability to work or get out to get food. Since then I've also seen some pretty awful scenes from hospitals in the West struggling to cope, but this graph from Switzerland where I live, shows some hope that the social distancing strategy can work. I (and probably many others) have been at home since March 17th, and we see from the data, the rate of increase of new cases starting to fall off from March 21st onwards (graph from corona-data.ch, white envelope curve crudely drawn on in MS Paint by yours truly):

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Most of the data is rubbish, even that on the otherwise wonderful Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Map. In China, I'm pretty sure both cases and more importantly deaths have been grossly underreported. In most countries, we're not testing as much as we should and we're not testing random samples, only people who present with symptoms or people admitted to hospital. In the UK, deaths from outside of hospitals have been underreported and in Italy, anyone who dies in a hospital with coronavirus is deemed to have died of coronavirus, which if there were other medical conditions at play, may not be correct. The only vaguely reliable data was probably the Diamond Princess cruise ship, which became a kind of unintended experiment: 3711 passengers, 712 infections, 12 fatalities and 18% of infected persons were asymptomatic.

So for me, I'm getting used to being stuck here. One walk a day, most days, trying to avoid other people. Do my shopping twice a week, work from home and have a long list of other tasks to do. I hope all of you, particularly those with health conditions or those over a certain age take extra care and rely on those younger or fitter where needed!

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TSR2
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by TSR2 »

The thing is Toby, testing in itself is futile. If I have a test today and I'm clear, by the time I get the result I could have it. Its just to feed a media frenzy for data that can be misreported to the masses. Now... If the test was for antibodies and and thus able to ascertain if someone had had it and was now clear, that would be a worthwhile exercise to some degree.
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TobyV
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by TobyV »

TSR2 wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 11:43
If I have a test today and I'm clear, by the time I get the result I could have it.
This is indeed true. I think the most useful aspect is that if a test comes back positive, you can at least tell that person to isolate and thus limti further spread from that person. You also get an idea of rate of spread and how many cases are asymptomatic. Assuming the test result is accurate, you also get an idea whether someone who has just complete a long, necessary journey, such as returning from abroad, has brought it with them or not.

That I am aware of, Sweden, The Netherland, Iceland and Brazil seem to be going straight for the herd immunity strategy. Longer term, I think we all will, because unless you can isolate every single case, which I think is impossible, you'll never stamp it out.

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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by GHD »

On a happier note. They are working on a vaccine.
George

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alemaobaiano
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by alemaobaiano »

Hi Toby

I can't speak for the other countries but Brazil is going for herd immunity due to the chronic lack of test kits and testing facilities. The state of São Paulo alone has some twelve thousands tests backed up, which is more than the currently (under reported) infected numbers for the whole nation. Unless you are rich or connected the chances of getting a result within 14 days are pretty small. Some of the smaller and poorer states don't even have test kits available, so anyone with a runny nose is being added to the infected list. The wearing of masks is being discouraged because there aren't enough for health workers.

We've been under lock-down in SP for ten days now, and it's already cracking. Small business owners are ignoring the quarantine to try to survive, staff are being laid off in huge numbers, and the relief measures announced by the federal government are pitiful. It doesn't help that those governors and mayors who are imposing lock-downs are the same people who let Carnaval go ahead with the virus already in the country. The President favours vertical isolation, most of the governors are imposing horizontal isolation, now backed up by geo-location data from the telecoms providers. Everyone is trying to score political points in the midst of a crisis that is destroying lives.

Tomorrow the governor of São Paulo is due to review the current lock-down situation and we need to see what he decides. The company I work for is still operating (we work in security which is classed as a vital industry) but most of our major clients are closed, and those that are open are using the crisis to delay payment. I'm the only one on the tech side working, the techs are on enforced vacation, and admin is in that same boat. If the lock-down continues the boss will have no alternative but to lay off staff, and possibly shut down the company. It's not a major problem for me, I can retire at the end of the month anyway, but the others have families to support. Unemployment benefits here are limited to a maximum of six months, so the prospects for anyone losing their job are pretty grim. Given that, you can see why people are willing to ignore the quarantine, it appears that the cure is worse than the disease.

Sorry guys, that turned out to be a bit of a rant :hide:

Stay safe wherever you are
In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. – Terry Pratchett

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Nigel H-J
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by Nigel H-J »

I think the biggest problem we face with the Coronavirus are those who have the attitude of it won't happen to me brigade and when there is fine warm weather these individuals will take themselves off to the seaside, park or beauty spot thinking that they will be safe but if others' have the same mental outlook and do the same then this is where the Coronavirus will escalate.

Warnings and advice to stay at home are not made to disrupt peoples lives they are made to save lives and the sooner people realise that the sooner we can expect a turn around on all the needless deaths we hear about world-wide.

Take care of yourselves.

Regards
Nigel.
I used to be an optimist but with age I am now a grumpy old pessimist.

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Nigel H-J
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by Nigel H-J »

There is now a new Labour Leader in the form of Sir Keith Starmer and what a change to the previous leader Jeremy Corbine.

I have never been a Labour supporter but am mightily impressed by this interview, I think he may very well transform Labour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52169648

Regards
Nigel.
I used to be an optimist but with age I am now a grumpy old pessimist.

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TSR2
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by TSR2 »

It’s always good to have a balance, and I think Keir will brink some common sense if he can weaken momentum. It was like a dictatorship. And the way they behaved towards Tom Watson was appalling. Let’s see what comes. I’m all for a more balanced house.
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Paul K
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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by Paul K »

I hope Keir Starmer will prove to be to Momentum what Neil Kinnock was to Militant Tendency. And yes, Ben, Tom Watson was treated abominably by the apparatchiks of the hard left. I believe Mr.Starmer will be the best leader of the Labour Party since John Smith.

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Re: The dreaded virus.

Post by TSR2 »

John Smith would have been very good indeed.
Ben.:tunes:

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