Client 6.8b
Moderators: Guru's, The Ministry
- DaveB
- The Ministry
- Posts: 30457
- Joined: 17 Jun 2004, 20:46
- Location: Pelsall, West Mids, UK
- Contact:
Good luck Jon. I don't like hops like that in something so big though they do seem to pull in good revenue Btw.. I try and leave between 500kg and a 1000kg in my Argosy's.. depending on where I'm going next and how much the fuel is there. Four ton is a gift!!
ATB
DaveB :tab:
Old sailors never die.. they just smell that way!
Gent's,
If one of you can explain this one to me it will put me out of my misery.
I have just made a 1.491.600v$ loss on a JFK LHR Super VC10 flight,breakdown as follows.
Tickets: +55506
Catering: -870
Pilot: -0
Cargo: +27018
Bonus: 0
Airline income: -4972
x300: -1491600
G-ASGC had 4995kg in the tanks at JFK,I added 50000kg making a total fuel load of 54995kg.
The flight was flown real time,But was paused for about 4 hours as i had visitors round.
Any ideas on way i made such a huge loss?
Pete
P.S
The above mentioned VC10 is in need of some TLC after its journey around the planet
If one of you can explain this one to me it will put me out of my misery.
I have just made a 1.491.600v$ loss on a JFK LHR Super VC10 flight,breakdown as follows.
Tickets: +55506
Catering: -870
Pilot: -0
Cargo: +27018
Bonus: 0
Airline income: -4972
x300: -1491600
G-ASGC had 4995kg in the tanks at JFK,I added 50000kg making a total fuel load of 54995kg.
The flight was flown real time,But was paused for about 4 hours as i had visitors round.
Any ideas on way i made such a huge loss?
Pete
P.S
The above mentioned VC10 is in need of some TLC after its journey around the planet
If United were playing in my garden,I would close the curtains.
- DaveB
- The Ministry
- Posts: 30457
- Joined: 17 Jun 2004, 20:46
- Location: Pelsall, West Mids, UK
- Contact:
:think: :think:
That's an odd one mate. I've never used pause before so I really don't know if this has had something to do with it. Best John takes a look
Joe looks after the VC10's so if you think it might need a little TLC (and he agree's) it'll be sorted soon
ATB
DaveB :tab:
That's an odd one mate. I've never used pause before so I really don't know if this has had something to do with it. Best John takes a look
Joe looks after the VC10's so if you think it might need a little TLC (and he agree's) it'll be sorted soon
ATB
DaveB :tab:
Old sailors never die.. they just smell that way!
Hello Dave,
I have used pause quite a few times in the past and have never had a problem.The only times i have made a loss in the past is when i have fully fuelled an aircraft for a multi leg flight.(the loss usually only occurs on the first leg).
I have used pause quite a few times in the past and have never had a problem.The only times i have made a loss in the past is when i have fully fuelled an aircraft for a multi leg flight.(the loss usually only occurs on the first leg).
If United were playing in my garden,I would close the curtains.
- RAF_Quantum
- The Gurus
- Posts: 2745
- Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 23:36
- Location: NE Lincolnshire UK
- Contact:
Hi Peter,
Yep, just a case of fuel cost exceeding the amount of income. With the amount of data we have now you can calculate prior to departure a rough income expected and try and ensure that fuel cost and other expenses are below this. Any flight with zero income will also give zero bonus as there is no profit to give a bonus on hence the nil bonus even though you used sim rate x1. The VC10/SVC10 draw a fine line between profit/loss on occasions. Previously I have flown a few short sectors building up fuel remaining on each occasion so that when I go for the long flight I need not buy quite so much fuel but this is not always possible/practical. It's swings and roundabouts. Another thing to take into account is fuel costs at the airports. I quite often tanker on some sectors to avoid taking too much fuel from an 'expensive' airport.
Rgds
John
Yep, just a case of fuel cost exceeding the amount of income. With the amount of data we have now you can calculate prior to departure a rough income expected and try and ensure that fuel cost and other expenses are below this. Any flight with zero income will also give zero bonus as there is no profit to give a bonus on hence the nil bonus even though you used sim rate x1. The VC10/SVC10 draw a fine line between profit/loss on occasions. Previously I have flown a few short sectors building up fuel remaining on each occasion so that when I go for the long flight I need not buy quite so much fuel but this is not always possible/practical. It's swings and roundabouts. Another thing to take into account is fuel costs at the airports. I quite often tanker on some sectors to avoid taking too much fuel from an 'expensive' airport.
Rgds
John
Fuel at JFK is 1.35v$ a liter,and i uplifted 50000kg.
Now forgive me for sounding a bit thick,can anyone give me a quick way of working out a formula so i can work out if the flight will make a profit?(it's been a long time since i have used math's in anger )
Thanks
Pete
Now forgive me for sounding a bit thick,can anyone give me a quick way of working out a formula so i can work out if the flight will make a profit?(it's been a long time since i have used math's in anger )
Thanks
Pete
If United were playing in my garden,I would close the curtains.
- RAF_Quantum
- The Gurus
- Posts: 2745
- Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 23:36
- Location: NE Lincolnshire UK
- Contact:
Hi Peter,
The cargo calc is the stumbling block to a certain extent unless we have data already from previous route with the same a/c as the cargo is on a sliding scalar for a/c cargo capacity vs distance. I've broached the subject with Konny to see what we can come up with and I've asked if he can put the Post Flight financial summary for income pax/cargo onto the preflight briefing. He is going to try and implement this in a few days so you should be able to do some calcs to see the break-even point for each flight. We'll have to see exactly what info appears.
For the time being the basics are as follows :-
Income from tickets (PAX x Ticketprice )
Fuel cost (Fuel Price x 1.234 x kgs Fuel Bought )
Crew and Catering cost ( PAX x v$5 )
Cargo income (variable v$/100nm x distance x kgs cargo)
Deducting the costs of fuel and crew/catering from the ticket and cargo revenue will give you the airline income for the flight. If at this point the figure is in profit then bonuses and pilot salary are applied :-
Bonuses as a % of airline income for the flight
1 x sim rate = 20%
2 x sim rate = 10%
4 x sim rate = 5%
8 + sim rate = nil bonus
The bonuses are then added to the airline income and the pilot salary is paid as a percentage of this total and then deducted to give a 'Gross Profit' for the flight. The multiplier is then applied to this Gross Profit figure to give you the final financial outcome for your flight. If the airline income was zero then bonuses would be zero regardless of sim rate used. Likewise, pilot salary would be zero as there were no earnings for the flight.
I've included the 'full' details for info, but the bottom line is that the pax and cargo income added together must be greater than the expenses of fuel and crew/catering costs
On your particular flight the pax/cargo revenue was v$55506 + v$27018 = v$82524
Crew and catering costs were v$870. Taking v$870 from v$82524 leaves you v$81654 to buy fuel to keep you at break even.
If you'd have bought 49014kgs fuel it would have cost v$81652. Add this to the crew catering costs gives you a v$2 airline income for the flight plus a bonus of 40cents less pilot salary of 36cents (v$2.4 x 15%) to give v$2 Gross profit.
Using the multiplier of 300 you'd have made v$600.
If the fuel pickup had been 48000kgs then the figures improve quite substantially :-
55506 + 27018 = 82524 Revenue
870 + 79963 = 80833 costs
Airline income = 82524 - 80833 = 1691v$
Bonus 1691 x 20% = 338v$
Pilot salary (15% of 1691 + 338) = -304v$
Gross profit for flight 1691 + 338 - 304 = 1725 v$
Multiplier 300 x 1725 = 517,500v$
The 'unknown' variable is the cargo income that we get for a flight. If Konny comes up with what he's promised, we'll shortly know upfront what we can expect as a cargo and pax income so some fine tuning can be done to the fuel loads to accurately predict fiancial outcomes for our flights.
I'm sure that you will have read and digested all that and I'll be testing you on it later . As I said earlier, it's swings and roundabouts but you can make a difference with a little bit of planning. I guess the headwinds that you were expecting didn't turn up. .
Rgds
John
The cargo calc is the stumbling block to a certain extent unless we have data already from previous route with the same a/c as the cargo is on a sliding scalar for a/c cargo capacity vs distance. I've broached the subject with Konny to see what we can come up with and I've asked if he can put the Post Flight financial summary for income pax/cargo onto the preflight briefing. He is going to try and implement this in a few days so you should be able to do some calcs to see the break-even point for each flight. We'll have to see exactly what info appears.
For the time being the basics are as follows :-
Income from tickets (PAX x Ticketprice )
Fuel cost (Fuel Price x 1.234 x kgs Fuel Bought )
Crew and Catering cost ( PAX x v$5 )
Cargo income (variable v$/100nm x distance x kgs cargo)
Deducting the costs of fuel and crew/catering from the ticket and cargo revenue will give you the airline income for the flight. If at this point the figure is in profit then bonuses and pilot salary are applied :-
Bonuses as a % of airline income for the flight
1 x sim rate = 20%
2 x sim rate = 10%
4 x sim rate = 5%
8 + sim rate = nil bonus
The bonuses are then added to the airline income and the pilot salary is paid as a percentage of this total and then deducted to give a 'Gross Profit' for the flight. The multiplier is then applied to this Gross Profit figure to give you the final financial outcome for your flight. If the airline income was zero then bonuses would be zero regardless of sim rate used. Likewise, pilot salary would be zero as there were no earnings for the flight.
I've included the 'full' details for info, but the bottom line is that the pax and cargo income added together must be greater than the expenses of fuel and crew/catering costs
On your particular flight the pax/cargo revenue was v$55506 + v$27018 = v$82524
Crew and catering costs were v$870. Taking v$870 from v$82524 leaves you v$81654 to buy fuel to keep you at break even.
If you'd have bought 49014kgs fuel it would have cost v$81652. Add this to the crew catering costs gives you a v$2 airline income for the flight plus a bonus of 40cents less pilot salary of 36cents (v$2.4 x 15%) to give v$2 Gross profit.
Using the multiplier of 300 you'd have made v$600.
If the fuel pickup had been 48000kgs then the figures improve quite substantially :-
55506 + 27018 = 82524 Revenue
870 + 79963 = 80833 costs
Airline income = 82524 - 80833 = 1691v$
Bonus 1691 x 20% = 338v$
Pilot salary (15% of 1691 + 338) = -304v$
Gross profit for flight 1691 + 338 - 304 = 1725 v$
Multiplier 300 x 1725 = 517,500v$
The 'unknown' variable is the cargo income that we get for a flight. If Konny comes up with what he's promised, we'll shortly know upfront what we can expect as a cargo and pax income so some fine tuning can be done to the fuel loads to accurately predict fiancial outcomes for our flights.
I'm sure that you will have read and digested all that and I'll be testing you on it later . As I said earlier, it's swings and roundabouts but you can make a difference with a little bit of planning. I guess the headwinds that you were expecting didn't turn up. .
Rgds
John