VC-10 - 'Fun' landings

[forthbridge]

Hi All,

Now I know what I'm about to post is quite probably ridiculous, however I tried it just now and it seems to work.... :o

I found the information on a webpage ages and ages ago - which typically I now cannot find.....

I found it after reading all about the Trident (now of course available for FS ) - IE The use of reverse thrust *in mid air*..

The website stated that in some circumstances, (EG wheel brake issues) an aircraft could be carefully landed , activating reverse thust on touchdown while keeping a high AOA (possibly becoming airborne again) to stop the plane.

So anyway I decided to have a muck around with the VC-10 - where better than Brize Norton with a nice long runway? So I took off on the R08, taking a reverse course at 5,000 feet before turning back over Fairford. I lined up and as I passed the outer marker for Brize R08, set the throttles to idle, flaps up and gear down, maintaining 190-200 kts on the descent. The Aircraft touched down just short of the TDZ markers at 190 kts, when I kept the nose up and activated the reversers. A slight pull up and the aircraft lifted about 20 feet before settling onto the runway gently, when I activated the spoilers. As the speed dropped to 90 kts, I pipped the throttles to close the reversers, and gave a dab on the wheelbrakes just as the nose settled. I then left the controls and the aircraft stopped with a good 1000ft to spare on the runway, with the spoilers up.

I was flying with only the centre tank filled at 95%.

Now I know this is a ludicrous question - and of course FS isn't exactly totally realistic - but how feasible is the above in real terms?

I've still to get myself FS04, so I'm also wondering if anyone else can replicate this *in FS04* - or is it dodgy dynamins in my FS02?

CHEERS

Jim

[Garry Russell]

Don't know about FS but.......

In real life the Trident could use reversers to aid rapid resent.

Stick the nose down and hang on the reversers..........Well nearly. I believe it was not popular with pilots.

May be Peter could confirm this..........one never knows if publish 'fact' is as it should be.

The Andover (HS.780 flavour) could activate revese in the air to aid short field landing in strategic STOL mode.

Garry

[petermcleland]

Don't know about FS but.......

In real life the Trident could use reversers to aid rapid resent.

Stick the nose down and hang on the reversers..........Well nearly. I believe it was not popular with pilots.

May be Peter could confirm this..........one never knows if publish 'fact' is as it should be.

Garry,

Not the pilots...It was the pax who didn't really like the rumble and buffet. The pilots quite liked it! However, we were encouraged to only use it when ATC were pressing for a rapid descent. I probably only ever used it a dozen or so times It would also be used in an emergency descent to get rapidly below 10,000 feet if cabin pressure were lost.

[Garry Russell]

Thanks for that Peter..Must have been an odd sensation for the pax

ATB

Garry

[cstorey]

Forthbridge - your technique sounds ok except for one point - arm and activate the spoilers immediately on the first touchdown - you do not want the a/c to leave the runway again under any circumstances particularly with a high nose up attitude as this is likely to result (on the second landing) in the bent banana type of damage that BUA suffered ,and in a crosswind may also result in a departure from the runway ,and although I do not have the design figures ( Tonks may help) I would be reasonably confident that you will get more drag from the spoilers than from maintaining a nose up attitude

FWIW Chris

[forthbridge]

Hi Chris

Thanks for that - of course it's just as well I'm only doing this in a sim...! ;-)

I'll give it another go with no flaps, spoilers on touchdown and see how it goes......

Peter: That sounds *seriously* scary on the trident, little wonder pax did not like it - I've only experienced a 'rapid' descent once, in a 737 on a flight from Nice to Luton, when it dropped at What I called 'lunatic levels' at the time - probably nothing out of the ordinary mind you! I have to say I don;t think i'd fancy sampling the delights of mid-air thrust reversal....

Jim

[MALTBY D]

What a hooligan!

The model does a half decent job of being a VC10, but only when you're doing normal everyday things.
Out nearer the edge of the flight envelope, it's anyones guess what will happen. I know that the stalling characteristics are not very good.
And it is much less accurate all round in FS2002.

The RAF chaps regularly practice flapless landings in the VC10s at Brize. Not sure if they do flapless AND slatless though, as I think that's a bit dangerous.
Assuming you're under max landing weight, you're coming in too fast at 190kt. I'd guess that real tyres could explode at that speed.
Landing flapless, you fly with a very high nose to get enough lift at a slower speed.
You'd be looking at adding something like 40kt to the normal landing speeds.

Lifting back into the air after touchdown is certainly a bad move. Even if you don't crash back down, contact with the ground slows you down more than anything you can do in the air.

Tonks could do it easy.
In a 30kt crosswind. :o
And only two engines.

DM

[forthbridge]

Quite right David.

For some unknown reason I set myself the scenario that the flaps and wheelbrakes are knackered!

Anyway, I just tried flapless at 170kts touchdown, spoilers and reversers. I alowed the nosewheel to touch at around 90kts, and killed the reversers at 70 kts.

I still went off the end of the runway at about 30 kts tho.

I suppose in a *real* situation reversers could be used a little longer, but I think I'll have to abandon this lunatic practice and go for something a little more believable. Maybe a visit to London City Airport... STUPID

Seriously of course the sooner i get FS04 the better.....

jim

[MALTBY D]

Could be that flapless & slatless landings are more realistic in FS2002.
I tried it in FS2004 & it's bloody hopeless.
As I said, it's not really set up to do much out of the ordinary & that is not something I've ever tried before.

Without flaps at light weight, it seemed to hit an odd spot about 170kt where it floats along quite happily. Instead of landing at Brize you gently float off into the next county.
Needs some adjustment to the drag there. Only trouble is, that would be bound to upset the balance in the normal flight range.
Something to do in the next update.

DM

[forthbridge]

HI David

For what it's worth (bearing in mind it's FS02 I'm using for now - until I get to the shops....) - I find that it's very, very responsive in parts of the envelope (particularly low speed) - however it seems to glide for perhaps too long - although I have no way of knowing if this is accurate or FS 02!

I can idle the throttles at 5,000 at Fairford, on a course to Brize, and easily glide all the way on a steady descent, with just a touch of throttle for the last 1,000 odd feet to arrest the descent and hold speed before the threshold - I find if I do that I can then 'idle it' onto the runway.

It may be 'unreal' or 'less realistic' in FS02, but it feels great - in fact, I'd say it handles/lands much more smoothly and easily than a lot of payware out there, or comparable sized-freeware.

jim