B24...????

[Chris Trott]

Using the B*itch isn't actually fair to Alphasim. That aircraft was a late model "D" which had some changes from the original incorporated. The early "D" model had the "greenhouse" windscreen they show (not the more familiar late-D and beyond "V" cockpit that even "Ol' 927" has now), and the nose actually *WAS* shorter on the D early models. The aircraft at the NMUSAF is not a standard D model. It has a longer J-model with the greenhouse added to it. Compare the 3 (927 with the D-model nose, SB, and Witchcraft (a B-24J)).

Compare -

"Ol' 927" http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b24regis ... m927-9.jpg

"Strawberry B*tch" http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b24regis ... 2843-2.jpg

"Witchcraft" http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b24regis ... 4052-8.jpg

Also, here is a production line picture of early "D" models on the line at Fort Worth - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B-24_ ... _Texas.jpg

[Paul K]

Okay, here's another comparison between the two. This is the best side photo of a D that I can find, although taken from slightly below. I've tried to size the photo so that again, the pilot's side windows are approximately the same length in both pictures.

Notice the length of the nose, and notice in particular how, on the Alphasim model, the roof-line follows an almost constant gradient from the pilot's windscreen to the start of the nose plexiglass, whereas in the real aircraft, the roof is almost horizontal before sloping to the nose plexiglass.




Sorry Chris, but if you still think thats a D-nose, then fair enough. I know it isn't.

EDIT: Reduced picture height to fit screen without scrolling down.

[Chris Trott]

Paul,

I'm not saying it's not wrong, I'm saying that it's more D than A. The A model nose had virtually no room between the cockpit glazing and the bombadier's glasshouse. In addition, it didn't even have the astrodome.

Also, your picture is of a mid-model "D". Note the position of the two side guns versus where they are installed on the Alphasim model.

This is the problem with the B-24. There were so many produced, but the pictures of them are sadly not as common, especially of the early models. Alphasim (from my understanding) tried to do an early model "D" such as the ones in the 3rd link I posted above which did have a slightly shorter nose (even though their deck angle is wrong), but as the availability of good data pictures is limited, they didn't get it completely right. It's still the only B-24D that's been produced for FS2004 or FSX, and even though they chose not to do a B-24A model or even one that actually represents the configuration or "Diamond 'Lil"/"Ol' 927", I still like it better than only having a B-24J (and all of its subvariants).

Who knows, someone may have one in the pipeline somewhere that might include some of these models.

[Paul K]

This seems to have become a discussion between we two, and I hope the moderators will indulge us a little longer, particularly in light of the fact its a non-British aircraft.

Chris, are you sure we are on the same wavelength here ? I am talking about the length of solid fuselage from the windscreen to the start of the nose glazing, which is the same in both real world B-24s in the two comparisons: extend the right-hand scarlet line down in the second comparison, and it coincides with the joint between solid fuselage and nose glazing...just as it does with Strawberry Bitch. They may be different sub-variants of the D-model, but that dimension is common to both.

Yes I know the D was altered during its production run, what with variations and improvements in armament both in the nose and belly and so on. There may also have been slight variations between those built at different plants. The relocation of the guns from sockets in the nose glazing to apertures cut into the fuselage doesn't affect that length, though the nose glazing framework may have been altered in the process, thus slightly affecting the length over all.

Try as I might, I can find no mention of the D's nose length varying to any great degree ( if at all ) in any of my books or on the web. Mind you, I'm astonished how little solid technical information there is online, given that the B-24 in all its variants was produced in greater numbers than any other American bomber.

All of which is superfluous to the thrust of the argument because the discrepancies between the model and the real thing are manifestly obvious. It is those that have kept the Alphasim B-24 on a CD somewhere in the loft, rather than on my HD and in FSX.

[Techy111]

So you guys don't like my paint then.....?



Tony

[Chris Trott]

Yes Tony, we all like your paint.

As for the nose length, I'm talking about the solid part. If you look at Ol' 927, there isn't room between the nose side window and the start of the glazing for the gun position. The nose on Ol' 927 is more reminiscent of the early D model (although it's been modified several times since) and the shorter distance there is there even though not 100% obvious to the casual observer.

Like I said before, I'm not disputing it's off, but I think it's off not because they did poorly as much as because the source material is so confusing to work with with multiple variations of the same aircraft and installations of weaponry that made them look the same even when they weren't.

[Paul K]

If you look at Ol' 927, there isn't room between the nose side window and the start of the glazing for the gun position.

Chris, even allowing for the angle from which that photo is taken, there seems to be little difference in the distance between the side window and the nose glazing on that aircraft, and the ones I have posted.

If you use the width of the window as a unit of measure, the distance between the forward edge of that window, and the start of the nose glazing, is just over 3 window widths. Try it on all three photos...its virtually the same. Okay, Ol' 927 isn't a B-24D but that dimension wasn't affected by the extension anyway, since that was inserted aft of the window. I know you aren't saying that, but I just want to be clear on it.

Chris, I will be heading down to London next month and will no doubt visit Motor Books near Trafalgar Square. If you want a books on obscure aviation topics, thats the place to find them ( things like Romanian Air Force Nose Art: 1924-1937 ). I will see what information I can find there, and I promise to be even handed about it.

Tony, great paint but needs a little more in the nose area. Oh...hang on, you can't...its not long enough.

[Techy111]

Maybe if i told a porky pie the nose may grow..?

:roll: Tony

[DaveB]

That was very quick of you Tony

ATB

DaveB :tab: