The Ponds "Skunk Works"

[DispatchDragon]

Keith has worked a long time on the trolley -- it was the biggest stumbling block for him -- Talking to him on Skype IF I understand correctly later Jindi's were actually controlled from the ground using CCTV - either way its great fun to play with and it will be even more fun in multiplayer where you can actually have someone making runs at the drogues.


Leif

[Tako_Kichi]

Talking to him on Skype IF I understand correctly later Jindi's were actually controlled from the ground using CCTV

IIRC they could be controlled from the ground but whenever I saw them in the early 80's they always took off with either a Meteor or Canberra and were 'escorted' back onto the ground again by the same aircraft. The escort/control planes were painted in the same red/yellow scheme as the Jindi's too.

[Garry Russell]

I would think it would make sense to have both options although one was no doubt the primary. :think:

Ground control might be difficult in certain terrains and at great distances

My guess is ground is better but air has fewer limits. Besides is there anything to stop them flying off by ground then being picked up down range by an air control crew???


But of course this is something I know nothing about


Garry

[dswanson]

Hi,

The Jindiviks were looked after very carefully so the polished paint was the norm. Such was the care of the groundcrew that they took it as a personal insult when an RAF pilot took one out !! You can read a lot about Llanbedr and the Jindiviks in the book "Target Rolling" by Midland Books.

The early work in the 1950s was with ex FAA Fairey Fireflies and they and the early Jindiviks were flown "blind" by radio control from the ground station at Llanbedr, hence the need for the "shepherd" aircraft - Fireflies then Meteors. The Meteors and the later Sea Vixens were also configured for radio control and used for testing new radio control systems and for training new radio controller "pilots", with a real pilot in the aircraft for safety. There is an account in "Target Rolling" of a new radio controller launching an unmanned Sea Vixen - quite a beast for remote control.

Although the shephed aircraft escorted the Jindiviks to and from the target zone, the landing sequence was managed by two controllers near the runway, one at the end of the landing run keeping the plane on the centre line (with reversed left/ right controls) and the other at the side of the runway managing the descent path and flare. "Finger trouble" from either controller usually resulted in a lost plane with everybody scurrying out of the way !!

Developments of the target service at Llanbedr did include cameras in the Jindiviks capturing the result of the missile firing at the remote flares deployed by the Jindivik, although in some cases the missile missed the flares and took out the Jindivik as it filmed its own demise.

All is now replaced with re-usable unmanned missile targets - efficient but without the character of the Jindivik and its dedicated ground crew

[DispatchDragon]

Cheers Degsy

From what I have gathered from Keith he was one of those involved in the TV Jindiviks - hence the interesting view from the "cockpit" - Ive now mastered his "trolley takeoff" its rather fun -- the landing is different as well -- just need to remember to hit the wingfold key at the end of the landing run which puts it back on its trolley - Keith has captured the Trolley rather well - even down to the mudguard on the front wheel to prevent water/fod ingestion -- it flies very much like Ricks JP only a little more sprightly in roll and climb -- its also a little bugger to get slowed down -Keith still has a ways to go -- at present you can see the HUD display floating slightly forward of the tail in certain views - the 2d cockpit view is a copy of the original operators screen at Llanbedr -- all the operating keys are at the bottom of the screen and ALL work even down to the drogue deploy keys Looking at the two drogues it appears that one was configured for radar guided weapons and one for IR weapons -- he hasnt added a drogue line -- I think probably because they would appear like hawsers in Fs9.

all in all it will be a lot of fun when released and a bit of a challenge for folks

Anyone fancy taking Ricks Meatbox and coming and playing mulitplayer?

Leif

[Dev One]

Phew! Got here at last!!!
Jindvik - yes I was with her since 1986, but looking at some of the above comments it would appear that I will have to publish another tome with the ones already in the Beta pack! I am not aware that any UK drones were controlled from the accompnying aircraft. Fireflys, Meteors U15 (old Mk4s) & U16 (old Mk 8s) & Jindiviks of all marks were controlled from the ground within the Control Tower at Llanbedr, there was however a relay station out on the tip of the Lleyn peninsula that had a microwave link to/from Llanbedr. This relay station had two antennae pointing south & one pointing West so that radio control coverage (Telecommand) & likewise there were associated telemetry receiving antennae, so the the whole of the Danger Area D201 & D202 & its sub areas had reception down to a guaranteed 50 ft altitude & up to 100,000 ft (dont know how they tested the latter!). At Llanbedr there was a unidirectional set of aerials mounted on the masts outside the control tower. There were up to nine people involved in landing the beast, & a whole load of bods down at Aberporth who effectively were intercept controllers in contact with the fighters, & one in contact with Llanbedr.
Sea Vixen - this was supposed to be a supersonic drone but it was NEVER flown unmanned, it was used for controller training and the AGS development, trouble was it took about 3 hours to prep it fror flight, it was so complex, it was really only used when WH453 had become time-ex & WK800 was being de-modified from its RVMDI trials.
TV - this initially started as a development tool as more & more Towed bodies were developed - they were of course cheaper to shoot off than to down a Jindi. The early days were filmed from one or both of the rear ogives, ad we had in my Dev section a Flight observer who would film & report back results etc. We also would fire off the normal miss distance 100 fps film cameras, but there was only 12 secs of film in those! So, some bright spark managed to get GEC at Basildon to design & build us a development TV transmitter which came into our hands at about the time I started there, we then used old tracking TV receiving station (Missiles that had TV for aiming - were fitted to Buccanneers - cant remember their name!), which was placed at Mynydd Rhiw & the picture relayed via the microwave link. At this time the RAF were security sensitive so real time TV was not used for missile intercepts - this didnt start until 1999/2000 when the results were also relayed to Valley so that greenhorn pilots could see what was happening. Our Hawk (XX154) & XX160 were fitted with TV cameras & recorders as well as having a TV transmitter, so that the Shepherd aircraft could (from a safe distance) relay the pictures of the intercept live!
TV for flight purposes was experimented with using the Meteor as the budget controllers considered that there were too many people required to fly a Jindi and if the Yanks could fly their drones using TV why couldn't we? Meteor had two cameras, one colour & one B&W, but for safety reasons, duplication & sea reflection problems as well as cameras & lenses being nowhere near as good as Mk1 eyeball (if one has long range vision, one loses peripheral - neccessary for landing). Even then a 7000 ft long runway at 5 miles distance is very small on a TV screen, & we were talking about 1990 technology. The other idea that was not a sucess was ground based TV instead of the Azimuth & Pitch controllers - again TV & camera technology at the time was insufficient and duplication for safey again caused difficulties.
OK enough of history for the moment - post any queries & I will try to answer - in the meantime research on You Tube for 'Jindivik Crash' - its a compilation video from about 1988 flight trials & includes a lot of video of the very last Jindi sortie in October 2004.
Glossy Jindis - yes they had a clear lacquer over the flourescent paint.

FSX - the beta version works, but some of the text strings do not show up on the instrument panel - for example the JPT readout that should appear alongside 'JPT' shows top left above & to left of ASI! Any ideas most welcome, although Its a backburner for the moment!
The .bgl circuit pattern will also not appear/load. I also find that the graphics are jerky compared with FS9! Maybe I have to downgrade my settings!

Hope you all have not fallen asleep after all of this!
Keith Paine

[Rick Piper]

Hi Keith

you could try FSX xml format for the egt variable

ie
(A:GENERAL ENG EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURE:1, celsius)

probably not the problem though

Can you please send me the FSX beta so i can look at the gauge files ?

you working in FSDS or GMAX ?

Regards
Rick

[Dev One]

Thanks Rick, I have no different .xml for the FSX gauges, so if you download my Beta version ( don't know if Leif has uploaded it yet though!) it will be the same. Its part of the AGS#6.xml file, whilst most string texts show correctly there are some, like the CL, CR, Des, App, ASL & HL, as well as the Bingo Fuel which do not show at all.
Unfortunately being a skinflint & not knowing any better; I only purchased the basic FSX so I have no access to the SDKs. I also have a problem with glass texturing - its easy in FS9 & Gmax. Don't have FSDS.
(Not sure how to attach files to this forum system!)
Regards
Keith

[Dev One]

Hi,

The Jindiviks were looked after very carefully so the polished paint was the norm. Such was the care of the groundcrew that they took it as a personal insult when an RAF pilot took one out !! You can read a lot about Llanbedr and the Jindiviks in the book "Target Rolling" by Midland Books.

The early work in the 1950s was with ex FAA Fairey Fireflies and they and the early Jindiviks were flown "blind" by radio control from the ground station at Llanbedr, hence the need for the "shepherd" aircraft - Fireflies then Meteors. The Meteors and the later Sea Vixens were also configured for radio control and used for testing new radio control systems and for training new radio controller "pilots", with a real pilot in the aircraft for safety. There is an account in "Target Rolling" of a new radio controller launching an unmanned Sea Vixen - quite a beast for remote control.

Although the shephed aircraft escorted the Jindiviks to and from the target zone, the landing sequence was managed by two controllers near the runway, one at the end of the landing run keeping the plane on the centre line (with reversed left/ right controls) and the other at the side of the runway managing the descent path and flare. "Finger trouble" from either controller usually resulted in a lost plane with everybody scurrying out of the way !!

Developments of the target service at Llanbedr did include cameras in the Jindiviks capturing the result of the missile firing at the remote flares deployed by the Jindivik, although in some cases the missile missed the flares and took out the Jindivik as it filmed its own demise.

All is now replaced with re-usable unmanned missile targets - efficient but without the character of the Jindivik and its dedicated ground crew

The so called reusable missile targets are Mirach 5 I think and they have to be fished out of Cardigan Bay either by Helicopter or boat (which can take a long time & in rough seas????? They then have to be thoughroughly stipped down to get rid of seawater. Quite a few JATOs seem to fail on take-off too, they apparently try to emulate a helicopter in only one fires!!!
If you look on page 110 of Wendy Mills Target Rolling - the photo at the top of the page - I am the one peering over the nose behind the Jindi, with the author of the book to my left!
That particular sortie (the 6000th) was a towed target development one with early TV fitted using a Mk 103b!
Regards
Keith

[DispatchDragon]

Rick

Check your PMs
Leif