GPS...

The Crewroom for non-FS related stuff, fun and general chat.

Moderators: Guru's, The Ministry

User avatar
Garry Russell
The Ministry
Posts: 27180
Joined: 29 Jan 2005, 00:53
Location: On the other side of the wall

Re: GPS...

Post by Garry Russell »

No you're not, that's the first thing I wonders especially as it fell on the non damaged side. *-)

I also wonder about the modern practice of not having the lifeboats o n top as the y can go under too quick and have a large liner towering above them that could topple onto just launched boats if it toppled quickly.

For many years I queried the wisdom of ferries arriving with their bow doors already open and was told the water can't get in easily, a practice stopped after the Herald of Free Enterprise into making sure they're shut before they move as it is only safe up to a certain speed

I've seen many comments about large liners as to stability as they seem to roll badly in heavy seas and the answers have always been re assuring, but often something, like this, eventually happens and they have to think again.

People have drawn comparisons to the Titanic although there is nothing in the slightest in common with the two incidents...except perhaps complacency.

It remains to be see what exactly did happen here, but in the case of the Titanic complacency allowed a series of events to line up and cause a major disaster.

Perhaps also, like the Titatnic it might have saved the ship had it hit head on but the glancing blow ripped it apart.
Garry

Image

"In the world of virtual reality things are not always what they seem."

User avatar
airboatr
Red Arrows
Red Arrows
Posts: 6770
Joined: 25 Oct 2007, 07:17

Re: GPS...

Post by airboatr »

My understanding - reading many of the articles is, Carnival, the ships owner has declared a complete loss.
450m to build - 500 to restore.

It will be a feat just to right her that's for sure.

Anyways as they say, "The bigger they are the harder they fall".

SkippyBing
Concorde
Concorde
Posts: 1459
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 18:21

Re: GPS...

Post by SkippyBing »

It's been a while since I had to do any static stability calculations but the classification bureaus will have a mandated minimum figure before they'll even think about insuring these things. Bare in mind most of the stuff above the waterline is relatively low density, function rooms, dining rooms etc. down low and below the waterline you'll have all the heavy stuff like generators, desalination plants, engine etc. Ultimately they're a bit like those toys you get which keep popping upright weebles I think, the problem is once you let water in it tends to mess up the calculations.
There'll also be various requirements as to how much flooding it should be able to take before bad things happen, I'm guessing this probably went beyond the limits the classification societies use although it did remain relatively upright long enough for the vast majority of the passengers and crew to get off.
The rolling in heavy seas is more a function of their beam/length ratio, they tend to ride the waves rather than sitting on them, much like fishing boats.
Image

User avatar
Garry Russell
The Ministry
Posts: 27180
Joined: 29 Jan 2005, 00:53
Location: On the other side of the wall

Re: GPS...

Post by Garry Russell »

It could be that the modern modular construction makes it difficult to repair with the old methods

One of those incidents that had it been a Hollywood script people would say great film but that would never happen in real life.

With so much panic and people swimming ashore it is very fortunate there were not a far higher number of casualties.

Many cruise liner passengers are not the youngest or fittest.
Garry

Image

"In the world of virtual reality things are not always what they seem."

SkippyBing
Concorde
Concorde
Posts: 1459
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 18:21

Re: GPS...

Post by SkippyBing »

I found it interesting they hadn't had an lifeboat stations drill to be honest, I'm sure they're supposed to be carried out as soon as possible after sailing on a UK registered vessel.
Image

User avatar
jonesey2k
Vintage Pair
Vintage Pair
Posts: 2613
Joined: 13 Aug 2004, 13:59
Location: Liverpool
Contact:

Re: GPS...

Post by jonesey2k »

The problem seemed to arise from that as people were panicking. If they'd had the drill they'd know what to do. The news are doing my head in, saying that the list stopped the launch of lifeboats on one side and that people had to swim for it. Isn't the regulation that you have to accommodate 100% of the occupance on one side? Like airliners need to be evacuated with half of the doors shut?
Error 482: Somebody shot the server with a 12 gauge.

User avatar
TSR2
The Ministry
Posts: 15717
Joined: 17 Jun 2004, 14:32
Location: North Tyneside, UK
Contact:

Re: GPS...

Post by TSR2 »

SkippyBing wrote:I found it interesting they hadn't had an lifeboat stations drill to be honest, I'm sure they're supposed to be carried out as soon as possible after sailing on a UK registered vessel.
you even get a Muster Stations anouncement on the Shields Ferry! :lol:
Ben.:tunes:

ImageImageImage

User avatar
jonesey2k
Vintage Pair
Vintage Pair
Posts: 2613
Joined: 13 Aug 2004, 13:59
Location: Liverpool
Contact:

Re: GPS...

Post by jonesey2k »

Image

Now that's what I call a puncture! :-O
Error 482: Somebody shot the server with a 12 gauge.

SkippyBing
Concorde
Concorde
Posts: 1459
Joined: 30 Aug 2006, 18:21

Re: GPS...

Post by SkippyBing »

jonesey2k wrote:The problem seemed to arise from that as people were panicking. If they'd had the drill they'd know what to do. The news are doing my head in, saying that the list stopped the launch of lifeboats on one side and that people had to swim for it. Isn't the regulation that you have to accommodate 100% of the occupance on one side? Like airliners need to be evacuated with half of the doors shut?
The lifeboat capacity does depend on the vessel type to some extent, full details here http://www.imo.org/OurWork/Safety/Regul ... ng.FIN.pdf. For a passenger vessel you only need 50% capacity on each side, along with a further 25% capacity in inflatable life-rafts, however you should be able to launch the lifeboats with at least a 20 degree list and you should be able to launch them all within 30 minutes of the abandon ship signal being given.
In this case if they'd given the abandon ship signal when they realised there was a 130m hole in the hull they shouldn't have had any problems, I think the question that will be raised is why they held off doing that? It's not as if they wouldn't have had the world's supply of flood alarms going off as soon as they struck the rocks.
Image

User avatar
TobyV
Vintage Pair
Vintage Pair
Posts: 2862
Joined: 26 Jun 2004, 20:41
Location: Halfway up a hill

Re: GPS...

Post by TobyV »

DaveB wrote:
Primarily they only use it in areas of "unrest" where GPS might be used by people whose interests don't exactly agree with those of the United States
Well.. that's just about everywhere then :lol:

I jest CT.. tks for the explanation ;)
ATB
DaveB B)smk
Ah ha, this would be why Ahmadinejad was seen driving the wrong way up a one way street whilst looking for a Chinese takeaway last week then.



Sorry, needed to lighten my day up.

It will be interesting to see what the final cause of this turns out to be. I found it slightly concerning (although perhaps not surprising) that the course is pre-programmed into the ship. Begs the questions "what do the crew actually do?", "Are they over reliant on the systems?" and "If it all goes wrong, do they still have the skills and experience to recover the situation?". In this respect I see potential parallels between this and the Air France Airbus AF447. In our relentless quest to remove the possibility for human error, we simple transfer the burden of responsibility to those humans (like me perhaps?) who sit behind desks in engineering offices trying to permutate everything that could go wrong and plan for it, whilst depriving those operating at the equipment at the sharp end from the opportunity to gain some experience and understand in handling the equipment manually. Perhaps I am 'young cynic' or even a luddite but I have yet to see a computer that can reason better than one or more people.

Post Reply