Trident Plane Outsped Sabre Fighter!!!

[dfarrow]

Hi guys , to complement Peter on Gib notes .
Gib used to be RAF North Point Gibralter ; and on my last visit in 1988 the ATC was provided by the RAF . It may well have had Air Defence Radar , as well as ATC radar to provide the Surveillance Radar Approaches [ SRA ] .
Certainly the Trident or Boeings did /does not have Radar warning receivers [ RWRs ] . The weather radar can pick up other a/c , but only 40 degrees or so either side of the nose and only if you know where to look or can see the other a/c .
Gib is a restricted airport . Used to require a Captain to visit before operating [ probably still does ] Shetland , the Old Hong Kong [ Kai Tak ], Moscow , were the same and Funchal [ before rwy lengthening ] required 2 visits !
Gib’s problems are not high ground , but the adverse winds generated by the Rock and the need [ especially Rwy 09 ] not to infringe Spanish airspace .
Wind given to approaching a/c are : Touchdown , Midpoint , and Rollout winds . Any one of which could be outside limits .
The limits being quite conservative compared to normal airport use ; but at Gib are necessary because of the extreme turbulence generated by the Rock . Beyond a/c – pilot capability in some cases .
Routes from the UK are over Spain to approx Malaga , and then freecall Gib . No handover from Spanish ATC [ politics ] .
Diversions in my day were not back to Malaga , but outside Spain to Tangiers or so . Which put fuel requirements up .
Tridents were performance limited both in landing and take off at Gib . 737-200s were much better in both regards .
A Skipper on the Trident once delayed take off until a passing ship had moved from our take off path . ATC queried this ; the reply being ‘’ Have you seen this thing with an engine out ? We’d hit the superstructure ‘’ .
ATC ,’’ but he’s 5 miles away ‘’’…… Us ……’’ Yes that’s what we mean ‘’ .
Speed points ..... the early Tridents 1s could do 400kts IAS [ so I’m told ] . In my time they were restricted to 365 in common with the T2s . The T3s limit being 350kts IAS . The mach limit , maybe M.89 [ brain fade ] , but I’ve certainly seen M.92 and rising ‘til we pulled the airbrakes out .
737s Mach limits much lower [ less wing sweepback ] but VMO 367kts IAS [ only at a certain height , and less below and above ] .
Scrambling an interceptor to climb up to 35000’ or so and overtake an airliner , will take time and distance . Better they start from in front of the airliner . Back in 1998 , a weather divert around some thunderstorms , Northbound over the Sudan took us 150 miles off track and out of communications with Khartoum [ always difficult ] . But we had the 26 year old Tristar thundering along at M.88 , and didn’t think that the Sudan Air Forces even older Mig 21s , would either get the message in time , be serviceable , not be on duty down in the troublesome South , to be able to launch and overtake us before we reached Egypt .

Hope that this helps back up Peter Mac .

rgds dave f .

[Aharon]

The Ten Most Dangerous Airports documentary originally used the word extreme, not dangerous. The title was changed for some markets to make it more exciting. That documentary doesn't back up the assertion made by Aharon at all,

WHICH program did you watch??? There are too many documentary programs with same title. Not sure which one you saw.

The program that I saw in America last year or two years ago said that Spain refuses to let any British based airline to enter Spanish side or Spanish air space around the island on way to the airport runway in the island therefore they have to take different runway approach that other posters on this thread said it would scare passengers when the planes make tight turn toward runway while facing too windy approach.

The documentary program SAID NOTHING NOTHING about Spain deciding to abandon the rule concerning its airspace. It is possible you watched different version OR I watched it 2 years ago and now they changed the runway approach rules???????

Anyway, Spain's rigid rule and refusal had made and still makes it dangerous for any British based airline plane to approach and land on the island due to unfavorable winds while non British based airline planes enjoy easier and safer runway approaches.

Thanks to all who posted very interesting facts and more information on use of Tridents for that Rock island and thanks to all for posting more information and explanations. It still AMAZES me that Trident full loaded with passengers outran and escaped from two Spanish air force Sabres

Regards,

Aharon

[alemaobaiano]

WHICH program did you watch??? There are too many documentary programs with same title. Not sure which one you saw.

This one https://vimeo.com/76554239

Anyway, Spain's rigid rule and refusal had made and still makes it dangerous for any British based airline plane to approach and land on the island due to unfavorable winds while non British based airline planes enjoy easier and safer runway approaches.

Did you look at the charts posted? They clearly show where airliners enter into Spanish airspace, British based or not. In fact the only non-British airline currently using the airport is RAM Express and they use exactly the same published approaches. One final point....it's not an island !

TTFN

[Aharon]

Did you look at the charts posted?

Did you read other posts in this thread saying that planes avoided Spanish air space?

In fact the only non-British airline currently using the airport is RAM Express and they use exactly the same published approaches.

That is because the airline is not British based. LOL

Anyway, I made flight from GMMX to LXGB heading to runway 09 and I made very very sharp right turn to the runway while avoiding Spanish air space. VERY TOUGH as I overflown the runway and had to make another attempt to have successful landing!!! It is like approaching old Hong Kong airport!!!!! Interesting experience. I used E170 jet for that and I am having hard time envisioning how Trident could make such sharp turn to runway 09!!

Regards,

Aharon