How to fly a DC4.

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cstorey
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Re: How to fly a DC4.

Post by cstorey »

Is a Dc4 cleared for chandelles ? I'll bet it's not, and the manoeuvre which gave me most concern was what looked as though it was meant to be a wingover but which developed into what looks like a half roll, ( about 2:20 to 2;30) and that I am certain is not an approved manoeuvre. There have been far too many displays which ended in disaster, and that is precisely the reason why display authorisation of both pilot and exact routine are now required . I also found the left hand wing to be far too close to the ground for comfort in two of the left turns, both of which showed a worrying degree of the nose dropping in the turn

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Paul K
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Re: How to fly a DC4.

Post by Paul K »

Chris Trott wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 14:54
I don't see how it's unsafe, or unwatchable.
The video is unsettling for me because I've witnessed two fatal accidents at airshows, and another incident which was inches away from a disaster that would have killed dozens of spectators. Consequently, I get quite nervous during such displays that push the limits, rather than staying well inside them.

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Chris Trott
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Re: How to fly a DC4.

Post by Chris Trott »

cstorey wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 17:33
Is a Dc4 cleared for chandelles ? I'll bet it's not, and the manoeuvre which gave me most concern was what looked as though it was meant to be a wingover but which developed into what looks like a half roll, ( about 2:20 to 2;30) and that I am certain is not an approved manoeuvre. There have been far too many displays which ended in disaster, and that is precisely the reason why display authorisation of both pilot and exact routine are now required . I also found the left hand wing to be far too close to the ground for comfort in two of the left turns, both of which showed a worrying degree of the nose dropping in the turn
Chandelles are a required Maneuver for your Commercial Pilot Certificate checkride. There is nothing in them that is inherently dangerous to any aircraft's structure. The key to a correct Chandelle or even Wingover or Duster Turn is that you manage the G-Loading more than anything. A Steep Turn (45*, level flight) typically puts more force on the airframe than a Chandelle or Duster Turn as both are performed as 1.5G - 2G turns but last half as long.

Again, this routine was a practiced and often flown one by the SAAF, so it's not like this was a "one off". There are other videos of this exact same routine being flown up into the 2000s at various airshows around South Africa.

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Chris Trott
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Re: How to fly a DC4.

Post by Chris Trott »

Paul K wrote:
19 Feb 2021, 01:48
Chris Trott wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 14:54
I don't see how it's unsafe, or unwatchable.
The video is unsettling for me because I've witnessed two fatal accidents at airshows, and another incident which was inches away from a disaster that would have killed dozens of spectators. Consequently, I get quite nervous during such displays that push the limits, rather than staying well inside them.
Okay, I can sympathize with that. I've also witnessed fatal accidents at airshows and I know that since there have been times where I've been apprehensive. But I also know quite a few airshow pilots through my various volunteering work and circle of acquaintances through this and other sites and have gained an appreciation for how much practice most of these guys put in, despite looking like "cowboys" when they're actually displaying their routines. For example, Kent Pietsch does both a deadstick demonstration and a "Drunk Farmer" routine in his "Jelly Belly" Interstate Cadet (https://www.kentpietschairshows.com/pie ... lcome.html). Videos are on his "Media Gallery" page. Both routines are highly choreographed and extensively practiced. They look dangerous, but having talked to him and watched the Deadstick Demonstration up close in 2019, I can tell you that while it looks really "scary" from the crowd line, when you can see it from up close without the distortion of distance, most of the maneuvers are actually pretty benign and the control inputs used are pretty mild. But that's the point - you're trying to look like you're on the edge when in fact you have a ton of margin.

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Paul K
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Re: How to fly a DC4.

Post by Paul K »

I understand what you mean, Chris, but the occurrence I saw wasn't something being made to look dangerous - it absolutely was dangerous. This was at North Weald in the 1990s - there was a tail-chase being performed by several warbirds, at low level, curving in towards the crowd line and then banking away. As P-47D 'No Guts No Glory', owned by Stephen Grey's TFC, banked towards us, his starboard wing-tip was so close to the ground that the vortex was kicking up dust from the grass. Not only that, but there was another aircraft ahead of him, leaving wake turbulence to contend with. One small dip and he would have cart-wheeled straight into the spectators. I might not be a pilot, but I know enough. What I saw wasn't professionalism or expertise - it was recklessness, pure and simple.

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Chris Trott
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Re: How to fly a DC4.

Post by Chris Trott »

Not minimizing what you saw or that it wasn't dangerous in that case. Just saying that while I've had apprehension about a lot of displays when I watch them in person, having gotten to know performers and seeing some of the "behind the scenes" that these guys put in made me much more comfortable watching other performances, like the one shown here. Understanding the kind of background that is behind these choreographed performances, especially the choreographed military displays of larger aircraft which are often highly scripted with very specific performance points and metrics to ensure proper safety margins are kept at all times has helped me assuage a lot of those concerns personally.

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