Classic Chimney Watching - (2 pix @ around 100kb)

WZ862 · Post by **WZ862** » 29 Jun 2006, 11:05

Yes, Ian is right. When Air Berlin was formed sometime in the late seventies, early eighties, it was a 51% Air France and a 49% Lufthansa joint-venture to make it legally a french operator and by this complying to the rules of Allied Forces Regulations for Berlin.

But I better rephrase my question. Leifs comment sounded to me as the PA 727s werent a common sight in the states as to they might have been a common sight in europe. Thats why I wondered.

Sven

Post by **Garry Russell** » 29 Jun 2006, 11:28

Pan AM used to operate 727 later 737 into Heathrow as well.

TWA and United also had European based 727's to operate feeders routes.

Garry

DispatchDragon · Post by **DispatchDragon** » 29 Jun 2006, 12:37

Sven

I dont know what gave you that Idea although 727-100s in PA colours were not a common sight in the US either - in fact IF I recall most of the
727-100 fleet were based in Germany - Only latterly when Pan Am was
unsuccessfully resurected at Pease AFB did you see the 727-200s
and then usualy AOG in Sanford - Naw strike everything above - Ive not really been in the airline industry for 30 plus years - Im just a twelve year old who reads alot

WZ862 · Post by **WZ862** » 29 Jun 2006, 15:49

Leif,

I had this picture in my mind were there was an omni present Pan Am in the past. So I wondered why you were able to pinpoint a 727-100 presence so clearly to Berlin. My cliches have been corrected. I wonder why this thread hasnt got under the admins scrutiny.

Sven

VC10 · Post by **VC10** » 29 Jun 2006, 15:55

Is that Dick van Dyke in the first picture?

blanston12 · Post by **blanston12** » 29 Jun 2006, 17:24

WZ862 wrote:But I better rephrase my question. Leifs comment sounded to me as the PA 727s werent a common sight in the states as to they might have been a common sight in europe. Thats why I wondered.

Sven

For the most of its life Pan Am flew international routes only and did not have any significant domestic US routes. This started to change during the airline deregulation of the 1980's but they were not very successful at it.

DispatchDragon · Post by **DispatchDragon** » 29 Jun 2006, 20:53

Sven

Very simply put I spent a little time in Berlin in the early 70s when a good
friend Jack (Chalky) White was the Station manager for Dan Air at TXL
So the connection between the Pan Am 727 and Berlin would be fairly
simple - It could just as easily have been a Modern Air CV880 which were
ever present at Templehof, And Im not sure what your comment about
admin was supposed to mean , Im sorry you have totally lost me there

Leif

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » 30 Jun 2006, 01:18

The reason that I heard for the Pan Am service into Berlin was that initially only the "Controlling Powers" (I forget the exact phrase) were allowed to fly along the designated corridors into Berlin from the West. So BEA, Air France and Pan Am were the only airlines allowed in.

Today I got the Aeroplane Monthly with a retro news for August '46 which mentioned that BEA were about to start their first service into Berlin with a proving flight by Dakota from Northolt at 2120hr on August 14th.

Presumably the 727 was the only plane that Pan Am had that was small enough to match the passenger loading into Berlin.

Apart from the restriction on airlines, the Russians/East Germans insisted on jets flying at the same altitudes along the corridors as the prop jobs they replaced. That would not have done much for the economics of the services either.

Drifting off topic I noticed today also that Libya is withholding the final compensation payments to the families of the Lockerbie disaster, and the US government has walked away from any involvement in pressurising the Libyans to comply. Even though settlement of the issue was supposed to be one of the requirements for the US to re-establish diplomatic relaiotnships with Libya. But then we should never allow morality to cloud political expediency.

DispatchDragon · Post by **DispatchDragon** » 30 Jun 2006, 02:49

Allan
Your totally correct all traffic in and out of the corridor was limited to the
"four controlling powers" Russia, The UK, France and the US - and
was governed by a rather oddly named department in Berlin called the
"The Air Safety Center" that was responsible for monitoring and control
of the three corridors. It seems odd that we have a whole generation
that has almost grown NOT knowing of the a split Germany

Leif

WZ862 · Post by **WZ862** » 30 Jun 2006, 09:11

Leif,

no need to apologize. I have to admit that my attempt to use irony was rather weak - I should really be a bit more careful about my usage of english since it is obviously not my mothertongue.

And for those that want to visit an active Berlin-Tempelhof: it is supposed to close on March 31st 2007. But that has be confirmed through a court decision.

Sven