Question regarding the Jet Provost

Vulcan_to_the_Sky! · Post by **Vulcan_to_the_Sky!** » 09 Jul 2006, 22:34

Hi,

I guess this is mainly for Rick, but If anyone else has a suggestion I'd be interested in hearing it.

Just re-installed the wonderfull provost, but Im having a problem controlling it. I have also just started to use the Microshaft Force Feedback Pro one joystick again (Finally found a soundcard with a gameport) and this seems to work fine with other aircraft.

In the Provost, however, no matter how little I turn it from side to side, it causes the force feedback part to rock violantly from side to side, causing the aircraft to go all over the place.

Any help would be appreciated,

Cheers,

James.

ianhind · Post by **ianhind** » 10 Jul 2006, 22:53

There is a known problem with that joystick and some models.

Since I stopped using my FF Pro some time ago, I cannot recollect the fix, but a Google might find it. Editing one of the .cfg files as I recall :think:

Ian

Rich · Post by **Rich** » 10 Jul 2006, 23:52

FF in the flying mode has nothing to do with the aircraft.cfg file, the FF entries in the aircraft.cfg only work on the ground.

I do'nt think I had any probs with the JP however I will reinstall it and check.

One thing you say you are using the Sidewinder 1 through a sound card game port, is this in XP ?

Vulcan_to_the_Sky! · Post by **Vulcan_to_the_Sky!** » 11 Jul 2006, 10:04

Yeah it is in XP. It could just be down to the fact that Its an old joystick, and I have not used it for ages, went and bought a USB joystick in between its uses, but now I've decided to give it a go again.

I'll have a look on google for that fix you suggested, but for now it seems to be any aircraft built in FSDS that are causing the problem, as It was also happening (though not on the same level) in the Meteor.

I do seem to remember having problems with the force feedback being too high when I first got it, though that was a long time ago now!

Cheers for your input.

ianhind · Post by **ianhind** » 11 Jul 2006, 22:33

Could't find anything on Google. Must be so long ago that everyone has given up with the Sidewinder FF Mk1.

I did find reference to a problem in a search of this esteemed forum :dance:

http://www.cbfsim.org/cbfsimv5/cbfsbb/v ... php?t=4765

but there is no link there any more (Mr Garwood, sir?)

And so now searching Google for "flutter" - talking about Mike Stone's planes:

"The only way I can fly is to turn off the forces on the joystick (which kind of defeats the purpose don't you think?)"

"Many of Mike's planes seem to suffer from this. I saw him suggest in his forums to reduce the offending control surface area by half in the aircraft.cfg, in the [airplane_geometry] section.

In this case, you would want to half the "elevator_area" value.

I've tried it with one model and it worked. Don't remember which though."

Vulcan_to_the_Sky! · Post by **Vulcan_to_the_Sky!** » 11 Jul 2006, 22:44

Thanks Guys for all your help.

Perhaps if this does not get any better I might end up back on my Old stick again, which as it happens, used to be the new stick to replace the force feedback one (funny old world).

Now If only I could afford a Saitek X-52...

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » 11 Jul 2006, 23:01

Guys,

The fix for any FFB control surface flutter which might be present (I don't know whether the JP suffers from it or not) is NOT in the 'aircraft.cfg' file.

If you change the elevator area in the 'aircraft.cfg' file you will alter all sorts of other aspects of the handling, which isn't what you want.

The proper fix (if one is needed) is applied to the OTHER (and often neglected) FDE file, the '.air' file.

What you need is an air file editor and then go to 'section 320' of the '.air' file. There are several threads in the CBFS archives which refer to this.

Basically, section 320 has two sets of the FFB parameters - one set is force and the other is displacement. Modify either set and you will affect FFB, but the handling without FFB will remain unchanged.

In the meantime, it would be worth waiting for Rich's assessment.

Cheers,

Kevin

ianhind · Post by **ianhind** » 11 Jul 2006, 23:08

Kevin,

I was merely passing on the info out there. It was always rumour and gossip about this problem.

I gave up with my FF Sidewinder many years ago (now in the garage). Luckily I bought it half price (and that was not cheap!).

For Microshaft to abandon the hardware support in their own software made me determined never to buy anything but the occasional keyboard and mouse from them ever again.

Ian

andy · Post by **andy** » 11 Jul 2006, 23:17

Vulcan_to_the_sky! wrote: Now If only I could afford a Saitek X-52...

I've got one.............and I hate it with a vengence.

I used to really like my M$ FF, but like everyone else, had to give up with it to go down the USB path.

With this new thing, the return spring is too strong, and as soon as I start the sim, the aircraft starts spinning all over the place.

Once I hit the spacebar it stops.

I installed the software so many times, I got bored with it and gave up. :sad:

Rich · Post by **Rich** » 14 Jul 2006, 03:27

Hi All, I have reinstalled The JP out of the box as it were, while the
ff centralizing is a bit strong and gives the odd kick it is easily controlled.
I am looking at reducing the centralizing force in the JP which has exactly the same settings as the Meteor but seems much stronger in the JP.

One thing about the Sidewinder1 is Microslop says it is incompatable with XP and will not work in XP so either James is lucky or MS were telling porkies to get people to change to the new USB version. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has the old Sidewinder working in XP

I have spent a lot of time on FF with trial and error research into elevator/aileron flutter and found the cure for it which works very well.

As Kevin pointed out the FF settings are in the airfile not aircraft.cfg, the FF entries in aircraft.cfg only applies to ground effect while taxying, take off run and landing etc. There is absolutly nothing in aircraft.cfg that you can change to alter flight FF. On the old Mike Stone forum people used to ramble on about reducing elevator/aileron sizes but this will leave you with at best a lousy flight model at worst a unflyable model. The only
place you can fix FF is in the airfile section 320.

Some have removed section 320 from the airfile as a fix and while it stops the fluttering you completly lose flight FF, one of the reasons you bought a expensive stick in the first place.

I worked on curing the flutter in section 320 and found I could fix it in any model and have been very successful with it DG's Hunter being one to benefit on my setup at least, one thing thought by some is that FF will affect flight characteristics, not so it has no affect.

I think Kevin will agree as will many others that the cure that I found realy does what it says on the box.

Have a look around at this address some stuff about the original Sidewinder and problem sound cards etc but not all on this page you will need to trawl around in that area

http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb;e ... sid=global

Added to this since all posts from yesterday dissapeared.

I have modified the airfile FF section of both the JP and Meteor by Rick Piper to have less back pressure when the stick tries to centralize, this in turn also much reduces the kickbacks.

If anyone wants to try them PM me with your email address. Only good for FF users nothing else has been changed so if you do'nt have FF there is no point in getting it