Classic British Flight Sim

Blimey, that really is horrifying to watch. How awful.

DaveB wrote:Shocking :o I suppose the saving grace, should there be one, is that the flight was cargo and not pax.

Yes, there is that.

watching that reminded me a lot of the DC-10 that crashed at Sioux City 20 years ago

Exactly that mate.. just what I thought :-(

ATB

DaveB :tab:

And the Fedex Md11 that crashed and burnt at Newark a few years back.

Two problems are very obvious - the 11 like its older sister the 10 has/had a problem with Rate of Sink with 50 flaps set,
to the point where it cannot be powered out in such a dirty configuration much like the old 40 flap problems with the 727-100, which might explain why he didn't do what they teach for LLWS. Also the second bounce "appears" to be More PIO than windshear. Finally I am curious about the proximity and positioning of the fuel tanks along the opposite side of the runway -- (The wind was supposedly a quartering headwind from THAT direction) - and wether the shape and spacing of the tanks created some sort of turbulence that added to the already known LLWS. Finally on the third strike the Left main gear can be seen to collapse - causing the left wing to strike the ground and causing the roll over - very much the way the Fedex MD11 did at Newark. I am very sorry for the crew's families, however if something constructive can be learned from the accident , so much the better. Unlike the idiot in the Pilatus PC12 that crashed in Montana killing all 17 people on board...yesterday..(think about that for a minute)

Leif

DispatchDragon wrote: Unlike the idiot in the Pilatus PC12 that crashed in Montana killing all 17 people on board...yesterday..(think about that for a minute)

As in the PC-12 designed to carry about 10 or 11 people... :roll:

Tragic. :-(

My condolences to those involved and their families.....

Hot_Charlie wrote:The CNN footage shows the first two touchdowns as well - the edit that the BBC have shown can be quite misleading without the 5 seconds before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avx1rn47 ... re=related

As you say, more revealing than the BBC edit.

TobyV wrote:True Dave, watching that reminded me a lot of the DC-10 that crashed at Sioux City 20 years ago.

A bit yeah. I think the Sioux City crash was nothing short of remarkable, both in the fact that anyone survived it and in the performance of the crew. Have a look at the CVR transcript here.

DispatchDragon wrote:And the Fedex Md11 that crashed and burnt at Newark a few years back.

And the Hong-Kong one, Mandarin Airlines was it?

DispatchDragon wrote:Two problems are very obvious - the 11 like its older sister the 10 has/had a problem with Rate of Sink with 50 flaps set,
to the point where it cannot be powered out in such a dirty configuration much like the old 40 flap problems with the 727-100, which might explain why he didn't do what they teach for LLWS.

The 40' flap setting certainly was a problem on 727s (inc the -200, it's still blocked / unselectable) although 35' is standard for landing so I guess there wasn't much in it for normal operations although I'm told that if forced to land overweight that anything above 15' degrees means there isn't enough power to stop a descent.

I used to work on DC-10s and regularly (usually a couple of times a week) visited an airfield where we lost an ac that aquaplaned & overshot. It became standard practice for all landings there to be at 50' flap settings. Those approaches never felt 'uncomfortable', the landings were firmer although how much of that was intentional (to ensure that if the runway is wet you 'break through' the aquaplaning effect) and how much was as a result of the extra drag of 50' flaps I dont know. I'd have thought though that if 50' flap settings were (known to be) dangerous that we wouldn't have been doing it. Cant say that there's no way it would be a problem but I think there'd have to be a significant other factor too.

Rgds
Richard

Link to the PC12 crash......http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD9745M4G5

Looks like the kids were in Parents arms.....swinging away from overloading theory now.....

Ice again...???

Tony

Richard

Theres an article somewhere specifically about MD11's and full flap -- has to do also with the aft cg on the aeroplane
and the long arm --- I'll hunt it down -- I had forgotten about the Mandarin one. Apparently the problem is not as pronounced
on the Ten as the 11 -- due to the shorter moment. Can actually say I have sat in a freight dog 727-100 and made a full flap landing when Atlanta set us up on a 7500 foot down wind leg for Hartsfield early one summer morning -- The Captain (an old "Six" Continental pilot ) Proved that there was nothing inherently dangerous in the use of 40 flap as long as you stayed ahead of the power curve the whole way-- tracon was surprised when we floated over the end of the runway and made the first high speed!!! Of course we were hauling boxes not foxes.....and that tended to make a difference.


Leif

DispatchDragon wrote:Theres an article somewhere specifically about MD11's and full flap -- has to do also with the aft cg on the aeroplane
and the long arm --- I'll hunt it down -- I had forgotten about the Mandarin one. Apparently the problem is not as pronounced
on the Ten as the 11 -- due to the shorter moment.

Yep, would be interested to read that. The '10 is noticeably tail heavy (can't fly empty) & I know the MD-11 is even more so (is my memory right in thinking it has a tank in the fin?) so CofG issues may very well play a part.

DispatchDragon wrote:The Captain (an old "Six" Continental pilot ) Proved that there was nothing inherently dangerous in the use of 40 flap as long as you stayed ahead of the power curve the whole way-- tracon was surprised when we floated over the end of the runway and made the first high speed!!! Of course we were hauling boxes not foxes.....and that tended to make a difference.

I'd imagine that involved a generous amount of power?

Rgds
Richard

Yes Rich - it has a fin tank - I have a friend who dispatches for the giant purple monster in Memphis, I'll ask him next time we talk.

Oh yes and the 727-- not as much as you would have thought......More about airspeed and vertical speed management, Don Kyker was a master of the whaletail.


Leif