RAF Rivet Joint Pic

[Garry Russell]

Maybe we should buy some second hand US fighters too...how about some Mc Donnel Douglas Harriers

Indeed Dave , we have lost the capability which is why would should get it back. Might come in useful one day

Buying off the shelf does prove one thing...someone, somewhere, has really big shelves

[Chris Trott]

McDonnell Douglas and Hawker tried to get the MOD to buy new-build AV-8B's and AV-8A+ aircraft and then again BAe and Boeing tried to sell the AV-8C and AV-8C+ but each time they were denied. I know there was at least one attempt by the DoD to offer retired AV-8C+ aircraft to the MOD for refurbishment to keep the Harrier fleet viable until the F-35 goes into service, but they were rebuffed again. Now it looks like the entire Harrier fleet in the US will simply be scrapped upon retirement because we can't even get the French and Indians to buy them.

[Garry Russell]

I was Joking Chris...we can't use our own stuff and buy US so the joke was buying US stuff that was ours...so to speak

nonetheless thanks for the info

[SkippyBing]

but there is something to be said for making our own version purely to retain the skill and capability base.

I've often heard that argument, but I can only assume we never actually had the skill and capability base as we don't even appear to be able to licence build someone else's aircraft without it costing an arm and a leg and you don't even need the design skills to do that.

[Garry Russell]

Very true in recent years but not so in the glory years.

It's time to reverse the trend, no immediate result I guess, but as it stands they are still winding things down and that will cost dear one day.

As it stands we need these Boeing 739's, in an ideal World we should have done it ourselves but haven't and this is why we need these now.

Perhaps though in the future we could do more to meet our own needs but the will just doesn't seem to be there and has not been for most of my life.

[SkippyBing]

True, of course the problem these days is we order so few of anything that the development costs can't be spread out enough so the headline cost per unit looks insane compared to an off the shelf buy. I'd hate to think how much it'd cost to convert three new air frames such as A340s to do the Rivet Joint role.

[Garry Russell]

No economy of scale and if an old frame was use like the VC 10, well, I guess all the useful most need spares were already used up.

But had things been approached differently long ago the result may have been more favourable.

We can do nothing now except, as I mention above, change direction so that at some time in the future we can get a better deal.

Even if we could take bare frame and a licence and do it ourselves that would be a vast improvement.

We have Global Express, King Airs, C-17 and Boeing C-137s as well as the newer Hercules as there is nothing British for those roles.

However when the original C-130K's were delivered they were stripped by Marshalls and Anglicised before delivery. Certainly closed the gap.

I don't expect it to return to the old days but I do hope that a niche will be found for the industry to hold on to, developed and be masters of.

[Chris558]

we should have done it ourselves but haven't and this is why we need these now.

We did, but it turned out to be a bit of a cock up, resulting in huge cost over-runs. (Not too dissimilar to the previous AEW project.)

However when the original C-130K's were delivered they were stripped by Marshalls and Anglicised before delivery.

There was an idea for them to be Dart powered. Imagine that!

[Garry Russell]

Would it not have been Tynes??

[ChrisHunt]

We do have the capability and the capacity is still available (but only just) - the problem is, as always, ensuring that the use of capability and capacity is ultimately profitable (even if underwritten by the MoD). The cost of design, rigs, tooling, training etc is huge and that's before a rivet is jointed (so to speak). Our problem has always been that we have not produced anything in continuing sufficient volume to warrant the cost of the infrastructure required to build. Add that to a lack of commitment or imagination for new UK designed large airframes and you have a dead or dying aircraft industry.

BAe Systems Regional Aircraft would still be producing RJs today if only the world wanted more of them.

Regards,
Chris