Classic British Flight Sim

Indeed Dave

It's more a case of pinting out the bad journalism.....they are saying one thing and showing another...that is all

When being trained you sit in the seat that you would occupy when qualified and the instructor sits in the other one...Hence if you were training to be an instructor then you would probably do some training in both seats. BTW Sycamores and R22s had only the one central Collective and there is a considerable difference in what you are doing when you change hands!

Going back to fixed wing airliners then, as a copilot I trained in the right hand seat except that in the simulator I sometimes occupied the left hand seat as a Dummy Captain with the other chap being trained as a copilot sitting in the right hand seat and the Training Captain sat on the third seat in the middle. I never occupied the left hand seat in the real aeroplane until I was on my command course and then when qualified as Captain...After that I never again occupied the righthand seat.

Some older types could only be flown properly from the LH seat

The Bristol Freighter was pilot and assistant more than fully dual control as a lot of the equipment was LH side only even the cockpit glazing was asymmetric

The RH side had the controls and of course the engine was all in the centre but some stuff was awkward or out of reach...like the trim wheel on the left side of the pedestal only.

Sometimes the control column on the right was removed and replaced with a nav table as the aircraft was effectively single pilot and RNZAF used to do this a lot on their longer routes to Singapore etc.

So the pilot flying always sat on the left regardless of rank.....except in some later survivors which were re fitted with full dual flight decks.

Skippybing.

Thanks for the reply mate,

It all seams to be a matter of name calling. isn't it PIC - Commander, as Sir Dave W. Berkshire called him, Pilot - Pilot in command ect....
I'm aware helos have Two Collectives, and that in large helos weight isn't a factor like in small helos.
my post was , as I said, A gathering of information to try and help, where were you when I needed you?

I could have posted all the details from wiki and whatnot, but my name isn't CT ....
I figured I'd get the what for for not being 100% factual. but thats ok I got big shoulders
btw the spinny bit thing is called a rotor..




Mike

I knows when toilets flushed in the northern hemisphere the water and bits swirl in one direction and in the southern hemisphere they swirl in the opposite direction.
But I've forgotten which, so could you do me a favor and climb in your toilet flush it and report back as to which way you start spinning...

PS don't forget your nose plug thingy....

I guess that came from the bit o Scot in me.

Have a great Day Gents

BTW Sycamores and R22s had only the one central Collective

The R22s I've flown have two collectives, although the left hand one comes out in about 30 seconds along with the cyclic extension for that side.

SkippyBing wrote:

BTW Sycamores and R22s had only the one central Collective

The R22s I've flown have two collectives, although the left hand one comes out in about 30 seconds along with the cyclic extension for that side.

Whoops!...Sorry, the thing I flew in was an R44

It just has a central collective:-

http://www.cbfsim.org/cbfsim/cbfsBB/vie ... ht#p192184

There is often a lot of confusion between the terms Captain, Co-pilt, 1st Officer, PIC, Pilot Flying (PF) and Pilot Non Flying (PNF) (or Operating/Non Operating Pilot in the RAF).

The traditional seats for a Helo Captain in the RHS and in a large fixed-wing ac it is the LHS. In these cases the co-pilot (or 1st Officer) sits in the other seat. However, in some ac both pilots are qualified to fly from either seat eg C17, Nimrod etc in other ac the roles are more traditional eg the VC10, Tristar... unless you are an instructor, in which case you fly in the other seat from the student... so if I am teaching a captain I will sit in the RHS on the VC10 and if I am teaching a copilot I will sit in the LHS. On occasions I can also be the captain and be sat in the 5th seat between the two pilots.

Now, I believe (but I am not an expert) that on the Seaking they do a similar thing. The winch is on the RHS, so if a copilot is going to get any experience he or she has to be able to fly in the RHS as you can't winch from the LHS... so although in the captains seat he will not be in overall command he will be the Operating or PF.

PF or Operating Pilot is the person actually flying the aircraft, the PNF or Non Op is the person doing the radios, navigating etc... but the captain is still in overall charge (the Pilot In Command) and signs for the aircraft and the task etc.

Simple really!

Tonks

Tks for clearing the muddied waters a little more Tonks

If we cast our minds back to the Triple7 landing at Hatton Cross.. I was under the impression it was reported that the co-pilot was PIC. I know this is civvie stuff and probably not directly comparable although even the old gits at Brooklands refer to pilots as PNF or PF so the modernisation in terminology obviously isn't that modern I read many of the AAIB reports on the incident but have forgotten a lot of the detail PF, PNF and PIC as described by Tonks is easier for me to remember so that is now stored and filed.. probably at the expense of something else I needed to remember being overwritten

ATB

DaveB

petermcleland wrote:When being trained you sit in the seat that you would occupy when qualified and the instructor sits in the other one...Hence if you were training to be an instructor then you would probably do some training in both seats. BTW Sycamores and R22s had only the one central Collective and there is a considerable difference in what you are doing when you change hands!

Going back to fixed wing airliners then, as a copilot I trained in the right hand seat except that in the simulator I sometimes occupied the left hand seat as a Dummy Captain with the other chap being trained as a copilot sitting in the right hand seat and the Training Captain sat on the third seat in the middle. I never occupied the left hand seat in the real aeroplane until I was on my command course and then when qualified as Captain...After that I never again occupied the righthand seat.

Thanks for that Peter.

The chap I know was a captain in both 737s and 767s, but would you train to be a captain on a new type or would you normally revert to being copilot when changing? He flies for Alitalia who I assume can dictate their own training within industry standards.

Jon

Jon.M wrote:

petermcleland wrote:When being trained you sit in the seat that you would occupy when qualified and the instructor sits in the other one...Hence if you were training to be an instructor then you would probably do some training in both seats. BTW Sycamores and R22s had only the one central Collective and there is a considerable difference in what you are doing when you change hands!

Going back to fixed wing airliners then, as a copilot I trained in the right hand seat except that in the simulator I sometimes occupied the left hand seat as a Dummy Captain with the other chap being trained as a copilot sitting in the right hand seat and the Training Captain sat on the third seat in the middle. I never occupied the left hand seat in the real aeroplane until I was on my command course and then when qualified as Captain...After that I never again occupied the righthand seat.

Thanks for that Peter.

The chap I know was a captain in both 737s and 767s, but would you train to be a captain on a new type or would you normally revert to being copilot when changing? He flies for Alitalia who I assume can dictate their own training within industry standards.

Jon,

In BA you only fly one type and start obviously as a First Officer Copilot...As your seniority builds you get the chance to move up to a more senior aircraft but still as a Copilot so by the time you get your Command course you will probably be flying as a Senior First Officer still as Copilot but on one of the most senior aircaft. Now you get your Command but probably back down on a junior type flying as Captain in the left hand seat (it may or may not be a type that you have already flown as a Copilot). From then on as you gain seniority you get the chance to move up types again but you remain as a Captain in the left hand seat. You may or may not have flown your new type as a Copilot.

While you were a copilot the Captain will often give you a leg to fly as P1/US (PIC under supervision) and he will sign your logbook for each of those flights.

My aircraft in BEA/BA were as Copilot...Vanguard/Merchantman and S111.
Then I got my command back on the Vanguard/Merchantman but after about 18 months moved as Captain onto the Trident 3 (which I had not flown as Copilot). I remained as a Trident Captain for my last 10 years in BA and retired at age 52 and a half.

Naturally other Airlines may operate different systems.