Classic British Flight Sim

Chris558 wrote:The Bruntingthorpe team would not try to cover something like this up. They are proffesionals and would most probably have informed the CAA straight away, that being the sensible and responsible thing to do. Otherwise, with all the hype on the net flying around, the CAA would be straight on the phone to Brunty, in a panic to try to find out what happened.

I videoed it - but have no intension of posting it! Not wishing to desribe the incident in detail until a more appropriate time, I will say there was a stiff crosswind which may have had something to do with it. But the fact that it all happened INSIDE the Airfield, may mean that the CAA will let it pass - certainly don't think they will bann this event.

My immediate thought (apart from disbelief) was one of concern, rather than "Wow! it's airborne!!" And then pondering the thought of what if the crew were forced to shoot a circuit....that WOULD provoke a different response from the CAA. Thank God they stopped it before crashing into the trees that surround Bruny, and that the crew were all OK - that's the main thing, no one was hurt.

Indeed, and that it doesn't happen again.

Chris558 wrote:My immediate thought (apart from disbelief) was one of concern, rather than "Wow! it's airborne!!"

In all honesty I'm not sure what I was thinking, apart from hoping that he didn't crash the thing!

There's a Victor, half way up the runway, airborne. A Handley-Page Victor. Airborne. In 2009. Am I dreaming?! :o

Hot_Charlie wrote:

Chris H wrote:To be honest I'm inclined to think the cover up isn't so much a cover up as a means of keeping the press getting their grubby mitts on photographs of the incident and blowing it all out of proportion as they usually do.

They're very naive in that case in thinking that everyone would adhere to there wishes - and the photo's which have appeared are proof. I'd be very surprised if someone isn't a hundred quid or so better off already for tomorrow's press.

It's an exercise in damage limitation though. An article that appears immediately after the incident carries far more weight and is much easier to spin as a typical "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" article. Immediacy is everything in scaremongering press and an article about something that occurred yesterday will always be penned in a very different way to something that occurred a few days ago, a week ago, a month ago or however long the team at Bruntingthorpe can try and keep the pictures away from the prying eyes of the public. Obviously they may have failed in that now but it was probably worth a go in the first place.

Regarding the whole "cover up" notion the truth of the matter is we know absolutely nothing. The CAA may have been present or someone from Bruntingthorpe may have been on the phone to them as soon as it happened, we simply don't know. But the issue with not publishing photographs and videos seems to me to be far more about trying to stop the press having an immediate "shocking" expose that carries a lot of clout with the general public and could hurt profits than about "covering up" anything.

Hi Chris/all

having had a look at some shots - and read what others (apparently far more qualified to comment than I will ever be) - there is one basic question that I asked myself almost immediately: What on earth was the Victor doing going anywhere near a speed it would lift off the deck? I've watched taxi runs before (the most recent being XH558 at Leuchars) which stayed firmly on the deck.

I don't know what issued caused the Victor to lift but we can be very sure we were not too far away from something very nasty happening. That there's a supposed 'ban' or news/image blackout' is frankly pointless. If a rag wanted a shot and story, they would get it - pure and simple.

As you say, we don't know the full story, and I cannot compare Flight simulator to the real world, so therefore I can only compare what I thought to what others said- as mentioned above. Any press coverage is frankly quite irrelevent in any event. Any major air crash is all over the media way before the AAIB are involved, and whatever comments a paper makes will have no bearing on what the CAA say about it or how they carry out their investigation (if any) - an investigation which will no doubt be conducted by people eminently qualified and also fair. I know there's a chip on many shoulders about 'elfin safety' - rightly or wrongly - but at the end of the day we have to adhere to what they say. IF, and I say IF more stringent rules arrive out of this, then it's not the fault of the CAA/Press/net rumour/Health and safety - it is due to what HAS happened - not some theoretical non-event. Most of these rulings do come about through a tragedy. Thankfully, this time there was 'no problem' - but the potential was most certainly there. The fact is, the Victor could have been taxid all day long at say 50 knots with plenty of engine noise - but for some reason it MUST have been going a lot faster than that, which is why Brunters will no doubt be playing host to the ministry.

Like everyone else, I'd hate to see more rules appear. But we can't stop it happening, and whatever the reasoning behind the 'blackout' it's frankly pointless - (and in any event it's public domain now anyway).

Yo Jim

Fair comment about the speed. These guys are Pro's.. they know the weight of the aircraft and what speeds are required to make it lift. I wonder if it's not a bit of over exuberance gone wrong :think: We've all seen fast taxi shots before where the nose gear has been skimming the tarmac and in the case of Just Jane.. her tail up! :o Will something the size of the Victor rotate and get airbourne on it's own?? I suppose if all the control surfaces are as they should be for takeoff.. enough thrust is applied and given a long enough runway, what's to stop it doing what it's designed to do.
While I'm not saying that the crew intended to get the old girl off the deck, everything they did must have been close to what makes an aircraft fly otherwise it wouldn't have happened. Perhaps something broke It's all conjecture until some sort of official report is released but I for one don't believe in magic (or Santa for that matter) ;-)

ATB

DaveB :tab:

Theres no Santa....... :o

Tony

:o :o
Santa's REAL!!

As for the Victor, it is all speculation - only those at the controls know what happened, and I'm sure we'll find out more eventually.

On the subject: does lifting the nosewheel contitute a 'rule break' for taxiing an aircraft?

For instance: the Vulcan lifted but had killed power before it even reached the crosswind runway at leuchars - you can see here just how much welly it has :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrqP3Z13Q7E - pretty sure another second of power and she'd have been airborne!

Those mains were a lttle light too Jim

Garry

They routinely lift the nose wheels at Bruntingthorpe. The Iskra does it on most, if not all runs, and I've seen the Lightnings do it once or twice.

Interesting. Being ignorant of full details, is there a certain %age of say rotation speed needed to get the nosewheel up? Does it vary between aircraft?
If so, it could be said to be 'sailing close to the wind' as it were. Given on some aircraft, V2 is not far off Vr, it's highly likely a 10kt wind speed change could lift an aircraft (IE put it past Vr V1 or 2).

Food for thought.