Classic British Flight Sim

Hi guys,

New guy here, hope this is the right place for this topic.

So I have just applied to join the VA, looks great. However, Im having some trouble with flightplanning. I feel a bit embarrassed asking this but here goes.

I have decided I want to step away from the world that is FMC's and actually navigate with VOR/ADF instruments. Lets put some context onto the problem I am facing. Say for instance I want to travel from EGCC-EDDL (which is one of the training routes for the BAC 1-11 ). I fire up FSBuild and compile a flight plan. Great, gives me a nice flight plan with lots of waypoints I can put export into FS2004 and then into Radar Contact from there. SID/STARS, not a problem, can navigate them fine, the charts have all the required stuff to navigate them via VOR/ADF. VOR to ADF or vice versa en route is easily enough to navigate to.

Now here comes the problem. Navigating between 2 fixes. "EGCC LIST1Z DTY ADMIS REDFA TULIP RTM VKL LMA.LMA8X EDDL". Say this is the flightplan Im going to use. So I would fly out on the LIST1Z SID fine and then fly course 149 to reach DTY. I would then fly 47DME from DTY on a course of 103 to reach ADMIS. Still all going good. Then here comes the snag. Now I need to fly to fix REDFA which is 84NM from ADMIS on a course of 084. How on earth do I navigate between ADMIS and REDFA? I could just turn on course for 084 when 84DME from DTY but when would I know when I have reached ADMIS? And how would I also know that I am keeping on the airway?

Is it possible to navigate this way? Or am I completely barking up the wrong tree here?

Sorry for the long winded post, I felt it would probably make more sense if I put some context with it.

Many Thanks in advance,
Cal

If no AreaNAV equipment installed on aircraft (by AreaNAV I mean GPS, FMC system, RSBN (Russian), LORAN, INS or any other means where you can program way points), you will have to look for a route without them; if not you will either have a very hard time flying it, or not be able at all. This is usually not difficult with proper en route charts, and assuming you have sufficient VOR's and/or NDB's to do this. I have noticed, even these days, most routes, even high ones (FL180+), make use of VOR's to define them, although they could easily do without them (say just make a fix). It appears those "highways" in the sky are still made up by VOR to VOR "hops" or in some cases (like in CIS airspace), by NDB types. Now, I've noticed also that some charts just have the names of the fixes and no coordinates, so on those cases you will have to have a system that can handle defining them by names only (I assume GPS and maybe LORANS, and such are the only ones that can do that). On the other hand, sometimes, you can actually figure out where these fixes are in relation to other navigation radios, and with some trig or or basic geometry, you can figure out how to define them using your basic radios. I have noticed these are not incredibly crucial if you're flying alone, but can be a nuisance if you fly online or under ATC that uses them. In theory I guess, you can define any fix or way point using only VOR radials or even NDB's (not even DME necessary), but it may prove difficult to fly direct routes between them that are not following radials themselves, as well as probably very inaccurate too (it is just not practical).
If you want, you can use FS's GPS or even a Garmin or something like that from 3rd. party (like PT's version). or an INS (like CIVA"s ,but no names on that one though), they are free and very nice and easy to tp add to panels. Well, anyway, hope this long winded explanation helps. I may add some graphics late r to illustrate my point(s).

Here's the route on an IFR high altitude chart. I figure the harder part is from DTY to ADMIS and not ADMIS to REDFA, but anyway, what I would do since ADMIS is only 4DME from BKY VOR, I would just point to BKY direct and continue to REDFA using DME and teh VOR radial that defines the UM183 portion shown. I doubt ATC would fuss at you much for doing that. This is from an H-6 chart I had from a while back.



regards,
Macs

Hi Callum,

if I were flying that route I'd fly the DTY - ADMIS using DTY VOR and DME to intercept the outbound BKY radial to REDFA (90 DME BKY) and at REDFA intercept the SPY inbound radial to TULIP using SPY DME to confirm TULIP.

Regards

John

Here's the rest of the route. AS you can see, all can be done with radio nav only (VOR and NDB); all you need is some charts (with the exception of the arrival, but usually by that time Approach radar will have you under its grips, giving you vectors ;-) ). The only one I do not know how to get is the VKL radio, you are going to have to find that one. I also added an arrival chart as specified in your route, but only for one set of runways. Use EADS to pick which one you need. Hope this helps,





Ok, here's the "Directions to the PUB" version of your route :drinkers: :

1.) From EGCC take LIST1Z Departure , ending at DTY VOR (116.4).
2.) From DTY VOR fly Direct BKY VOR (116.25) and then out on 087 radial to ADMIS waypoint/intersection at 4 dme on 087 radial (Remember this one is not quite exact due to nav limitations).
3.) From ADMIS waypoint/intersection fly via BKY radial 087 to 89 DME to intersection REDFA.
4.) At REDFA, tune in to VOR SPY (113.3) and follow on radial 255 on an inbound course of 075 to SPY VOR to reach waypoint/intersectionTULIP at 38 DME from SPY VOR.
5.) From TULIP waypoint/intersection fly direct RTM VOR (110.4).
6.) From RTM VOR fly direct VKL (VOR?TACAN?).
7.) From VKL radio fly direct LMA NDB (311).
8.) Follow Arrive instructions LMA8X to EDDL.

Regards,
Macs

Wow! Thanks for the help guys, really appriciated.

I am pretty confident I fully understand how to navigate between fixes now, just need the help of some handy en-route IFR charts. Where would I go to find such charts for Europe coverage? I know skyvector has some pretty comprehensive USA ones, is there anywhere similiar for Europe?

Thanks again for the excellent help guys!

Regards,
Cal

NACO used to have it, but is now restricted. I have some old Jpeg's which are the ones you see above. They are a bit better resolution than what you see on the forums, but at least it's something. You can also purchase some ol charts on ebay or do a search on the internet, sometimes people have them and just want to get rid of them. You can also use products like Supper Flight planner to build the route; The program will build you the route with frequencies and everything. It has graphical map interface so it is as if you have charts. The software is free ware and you can find it at: http://www.cpinf.com/

Hope this helps and happy navigating
regards,
Macs

Been using Super Flight Planner as suggested and works a treat!

Have been doing a few test flights and have managed not to have the Radar Contact ATC shout at me, so I must be getting things right . I do find that FSBuild can sometimes give me flightplans which are impossible without some sort of FMC, but I can usually ammend that in Super Flight Planner and try to still keep to a realistic flight plan.

Thanks again for all the help. Think I'm going to go and apply for my type rating now.

Regards,
Cal