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The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 30 Apr 2011, 11:01
by VC10
I have just finished reading 'The Quick & The Dead - The story of a Chief Test Pilot' by Sqdn Ldr Bill Waterton G.M, A.F.C. and bar.

I haven't put this post the book recommendations thread because it is virtually unobtainable as it was published in 1956 - I got my copy from New Zealand. What prompted me to search it out was the several references to it in the book 'Empire of the Clouds' that was published last year.

The book covers the post war period from being selected for the RAF's High Speed Flight, based at Tangmere, that raised the world speed record in 1946 with some Meteor specials to his resignation from Gloster's in 1954. Some say he was pushed, others say he jumped.

I found it an interesting book that covers the trials & tribulations of developing the Meteor and the Javelin and the 'alleged' reluctance of Gloster's to introduce mods that Waterton felt were necessary. He is highly critical of the UK aviation industry and it's reliance on Government contracts rather than going out into the big wide world and developing a plane to fill a gap in the market. He felt we didn't build enough prototypes resulting in a/c going into production not fully developed. He wonders why pre-war we built and sold large numbers of light aircraft but post war we built virtually nothing.

The book mentions things like

The CO of the High Speed flight being sucked into a Meteor's engine and only the quick reaction of the man in the cockpit shutting the engine down and another officers grabbing his legs saved him.

The Mark VIII Meteor as originally built, was fitted with Mark IV's tails which were not suitable for the extra length & C of G change, due to an extra 95 gallon fuel tank, of the Mk VIII, but the one fitted to the E1/44 corrected these problems. However Gloster said the first hundred Mark VIII's would be fitted with the original tail units because they had already signed a contract with a sub-contractor to build a hundred! Waterton objected strongly so Gloster's said let Boscombe decide. The Boscombe pilots agreed with Waterton so the MOS at Boscombe ducked out and said let's see what the RAF's Central Fighter Establishment say. Now as it happened Waterton's had some contacts at the CFE and to cut the story short the Mk. VIII's never got the Mk. IV tails.

The Javelin prototype had 'open shrouded' controls, the same as the Meteor and the E1/44. These control surface heavy'd up at speed 'which made it beyond the pilots strength to manoeuvre the 'plane rapidly at anything above half speed'. He say's 'Again my remonstrance went unheeded'. Some time later he had to demonstrate the Javelin to some Ministry types. "carefully keeping the speed low in order to move the controls for aerobatics, I performed zooms, upward rolls, rolls off the top and reversed turns all in quick succession. I did not loop either then, or at the two Farnborough shows at which I flew the Javelin, for I should never had the strength to pull it out of a steep dive. After the display a senior member of the design office said to me acidly " Don't know what you are criticizing those controls about. If you can throw it around like that there's nothing wrong with them."

Landing the prototype Javelin at Boscombe, after the elevators at departed the a/c somewhere near Whitney, at 60 mph higher than landing speed, only to be caught out by a gust of wing just after touchdown that resulted in a series of bounces that ended in a flaming heap at the end of the runway. He was then stuck in the cockpit due to a jammed canopy that was slowly softening in the heat. He managed to get the canopy open in the end and escape. Apparently afterwards 'a flying control type said "By jove, you're a cool customer, sitting in there waiting for the fire tender to come and put the fire out"'. It was this incident where he won the GM for going back in to rescue the flight recorders.

The book at the time of publication was highly controversial and was the cause of him being fired from his post Gloster job as the Aviation Correspondent of the Daily Express. Apparently a number of the Expresses advertisers said he had to go.

All I can say is, look at the UK aircraft manufacturing base now.

If you aren't familiar with the E1/44 (as I wasn't) here it is.

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Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 30 Apr 2011, 18:13
by Paul K
VC10 wrote:I have just finished reading 'The Quick & The Dead - The story of a Chief Test Pilot' by Sqdn Ldr Bill Waterton G.M, A.F.C. and bar.

I haven't put this post the book recommendations thread because it is virtually unobtainable as it was published in 1956 - I got my copy from New Zealand. What prompted me to search it out was the several references to it in the book 'Empire of the Clouds' that was published last year.
I've just finished reading Empire of the Clouds too, and was wondering whether Waterton's book was available. A Google search produces nothing, so you certainly do have a rarity there. Very interesting read by the sound of it, though its publication virtually finished off his career.

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 30 Apr 2011, 21:17
by DispatchDragon
Waterton was totally disliked by the other test pilots at Glosters as an arrogant self centered buffon.....not my words....Dicky Martins....
If you believe everything Zura went to Avro Canada because of him

Leif

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 01 May 2011, 01:02
by Tomliner
'Empire of the Clouds' is released in paperback on May 5th.I am wating to buy my copy.EricT

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 01 May 2011, 07:50
by VC10
DispatchDragon wrote:Waterton was totally disliked by the other test pilots at Glosters as an arrogant self centered buffon.....not my words....Dicky Martins....
If you believe everything Zura went to Avro Canada because of him

Leif
First, I do appreciate Waterton was a controversial character.

Just to be Devil's advocate, could he have been disliked because he was a new broom and called a spade a spade? Admittedly it's Waterton's account, but he say's his predecessor as CTP at Gloster's had not flown for about a year after an incident in a Meteor at high altitude when his canopy burst and had become more of an admin man than a flyer resulting in the flying department being a bit slack.

Avro's Sir Roy Dobson sent him to Avro Canada for 15 months to do the initial test flying of the CF-100.

Paul

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 01 May 2011, 16:29
by airboatr
Not being one to believe hearsay....
From everything I've read of the man and from his written words of his personal experiences.
He was dead on and right to express his concerns.
Which leaves me believing; Gloster being what they are today is the proof in the pudding.

Having said that, perhaps Waterton could have better made his point
if he had worked on his delivery.
Although I doubt that would have changed the establishment from being greedy shortsighted and self serving.
And of course being that I wasn't there myself to see it. I only have recorded history from multiple sources to form my opinion.

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 01 May 2011, 23:37
by SkippyBing
Which leaves me believing; Gloster being what they are today is the proof in the pudding.
I think that's the crux of the matter. If Waterton had been wrong Gloster would have gone on to further success after the Javelin, as it was their last fighter is to some extent famed for going slower when you applied reheat...

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 02 May 2011, 09:54
by VC10
I have just done a quick scan and paste of Waterton's last chapter in the book entitled "Why Britain Has Failed".

Waterton

I think he makes some good points like using standard parts like wheels, u/c legs and generators (where possible) to keep down costs

On the second page he refers to a "post war fighter which neither the RAF nor the Navy wanted" - I've been trying to work out which one that would be. The Vampire?

Paul

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 02 May 2011, 18:36
by DispatchDragon
I am biased - I spent most of my early years as a "Child" of Gloster Aircraft, The reason I made the statement about Waterton was NOT based on heresay, but on first person exposure, I clearly remember the likes of Geoff Worrell, Dicky Martin, Zura and even Dizzy Addicott (test pilots ALL for GAC) sitting around the kitchen table with my father and other designers talking about the Javelin - (It was on that table that I saw a brass wind tunnel model of the "Thin Wing" Javelin) The Statement I made about Waterton was not heresay, and Both he (And many here) seem to want to blame GAC for failing -- Gloster Aircraft was NOT an independent company but rather a division of Hawker, and many lives were hurt when Hawker decided to close the Brockworth Plant. The Meteor, and Javelin had short comings yes, but so did many first and second generation Jet fighters at the time (Ever watched film of the North American F100 do its fatal "Sabre Dance"???) Designers, pilots and engineers were working in a gray area on the edge on both knowledge and technology, the fact that many designs were flawed is NOT the fault of the company or the designers and engineers that built them, I had NOT read Waterton's book, but after reading this I went hunting on the internet, what I found was a bitter and self serving man whose "I told you so" attitude does nothing to further aviation history, If the Jav was so damned dangerous why was Dicky Martin's party piece of rolling the aircraft inverted immeadiatly after take off from Brockworth on its way to Moreton Valence? His "reasoning" was that if the designers and engineers had left anything loose in the aircraft he was giving to let them have it back...In their defence GAC was a good company to their employee's and their families for the first nine years of my life it was this big black factory at the end of our garden, with memories of sitting in a tree house watching Javelins depart and the company Rapide and RAF Ansons come and go, of Cricket matches on the GAC Social club pitches , selling fruit to factory workers coming down the lane at 5pm, and collecting brass from the shooting range that backed on to the Factory. If anyone would have a bitter taste for GAC I would, they made my father redundant on a Thursday afternoon along with many designers in the loft, It forced our family from a settled life in rural Gloucestershire in becoming Gypsies in the Aviation Industry - fifty years later I am still a gypsy, Aviation has shown me 80% of the world, and allowed me to meet people (like yourselves) who under normal circumstances I would never have met, do I hold I'll will against GAC? no...

Sorry just noticed a bit from Paul about the Canuck --- Waterton, Zura and MANY GAC folks went to Canada to work for AC it wasn't to "get him out of the way" - My father was amongst the group who worked on Velvet Glove at Cartier and Cold Lake (The weapon system for the CF105) many people do not realise that most of the CF105s design group and pilots came from GAC. the project lasted from 54 to 57 so do we assume because of this that the 105 was a dangerous failure?



So, if you weren't there please have a thought before you make comment

Thanks

Leif

Re: The Quick & The Dead.

Posted: 02 May 2011, 22:47
by airboatr
DispatchDragon wrote:I am biased -

Leif
I stopped reading after that ol boy

Synonyms being; warped, narrow minded, unfair, twisted, small minded ...amongst others.

Your word not mine. ;)


Of course I do have personal experience with you to back that up.

Think on that.

Thanks :hello: