Comet and Trident. Do these planes use Sids and Stars?

[Fortiesman]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question but may I ask the following

I fly the Comet and the Trident in FSX, virtual cockpit using trackir. I stay in the cockpit using the joystick, of course, and then only the mouse with which to operate the necessary switches, knobs and dials in order to fly the planes on IFR, ( trying to imitate the pilot's actions. ). I use the default ATC with the default flight plans.

I have many times heard of Sids and Stars, and I know little of them apart from they are used on departure and approach to airports!

I do not know which planes can/do and can't/don't use them.

I have just started attending my nearest flight simulator group which meets monthly. It seems split into two camps- the G. A chaps and those into Heavies
No one flies the Comet or Trident or any intermediate airliners!

I am trying to pick up relevant information from this group of chaps who are all helpful, but my second attendance has left me with some questions which hopefully some of you chaps could answer please.

The heavies group fly the Boeing PMDG types which have FMCs etc, and when I asked about flight plans involving Sids and stars, it was explained to me that

Flight plans including S and S are made and input into the FMC before the flight. When the plane takes off, the Sids are automatically flown by the plane computer; indeed the whole flight is flown by the computer - and the ATC , ( usually VATSIM chaps ), come in towards the end to issue descent and landing instructions etc.
This is obviously a different world from the default ATC guiding me through IFR on a default flight plan, (even when augmented by FC Commander, which I use on an adjacent monitor.)

So, I ask, how can Sids and stars be used by the Comet, where the speed isn't programmed/programmable into the autopilot. Does not the absence of a FMC in a Comet, and the
nature of the autopilot ( which i enjoy operating! ) mean that Sids aren't used, or if they are, they have to be flown almost manually?
And if they are flown outside of an FMC, how does the pilot know he has flown the distance between one waypoint and the next? etc

Can, please, someone explain or point to where I can learn how to operate Sids and Stars with the Comet, or how real pilots used departures and approaches if different from the IFR instructions as issued by the default ATC.

Sorry this seems long winded, but the heavies in the group seem to think I would be better off flying the PMDG Boeings, as they do, ( and they would show me,) but to be honest there is no way I will give up flying the Comet and Trident, IMHO, the two best planes out there for FSX.

TIA

FM

[Chris Trott]

Current UK DP's and STAR's are available here - UK AIP

These are designed primarily to be flown by FMS-equipped aircraft, however some (which do not have notations about RNAV) can be flown by any properly equipped aircraft and trained flight crew. These DP's and STARS typically required 2 VOR receivers with DME to be properly flown.

DP's and STAR's have been around since the 1960's and were originally conceived to organize traffic in bad weather before radar was a standard item. This allowed both crews and ATC to know what everyone was going to do and where they were. The crew would be required to report various points along the procedure and that would allow ATC to check separation and issue speed changes to other traffic to keep aircraft from running into each other until they got into the final terminal area that had radar. Now, they're just used to maximize the amount of traffic you can fit through the airspace in a given time.

If you want to learn all about how to fly DP's and STAR's, I would suggest these two sites -

VATSIM-UK Pilot Training - http://www.vatsim-uk.co.uk/website/pilot-info/

General information on how to fly IFR procedures and navigation methods - http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/

BTW, if you use an external FMS program like FSNAV or FSCommander, you can fly RNAV procedures even with the Trident and Comet.

[petermcleland]

In real life with the Trident, the SID was flown either manually or on autopilot...However, you could not program the autopilot with the SID and you had to use the autopilot controls to influence the climb to make it level at the necessary altitudes or to leave an altitude and start it climbing again. As far as the lateral navigation was concerned you merely locked the autopilot to the heading index on your compass and then turned the heading index knob on the compass to make the aircraft fly the designated SID track...This was achieved by using the RMI indications for the SID beacon bearings and the beam bar in the compass to fly designated VOR radials.

You just had to have the procedure in your head...Like this for the Heathrow Clacton SID from runway 28R...after take-off...Ahead to intercept Tr 303M (BUR 117.1 123Radial). At LON (113.6)dme 6nms, turn right onto track 059M to CHT (279.0). At CHT right onto Tr 069M to BPK (328.0), then right on Tr 088M to CLN (114.55)...CROSS LON 303R above 3000', CHT above 4000' and BPK AT 5000'.

For this SID you would, before even taxying out, have tuned one of your NAVs to Burnham (BUR 117.1) and the other NAV to London (LON 113.6)...Your ADFs would be tuned to Chiltern (CHT 279.0) and Brookmans Park (BPK 328.0).

So you would not have to tune anything immediately after take-off as it would be all ready done and your next aid to tune would be Clacton VOR (CLN 114.55) and you could do that anytime after you had finished with LON when you had made sure that you had crossed its 303R above 3000'.

In practice ATC would clear you on up to a higher level before you actually levelled at 5000' and you would probably be getting near your cruise level by Clacton.

If you read this post carefully, you will understand how it was done before aircraft had FMCs and on the Trident, in good weather, the SID was most often hand flown by the handling pilot till about 10,000 feet before he bothered to engage the autopilot. In bad weather the autopilot was engaged at about 500 feet.

[TSR2]

Great stuff Peter. I loved your Trident AP tutorial and this is more great information. Thanks

[DaveB]

I enjoyed that very much too Ben. Glad you popped in Peter

FMC's.. eat my shorts!

ATB
DaveB

[cstorey]

As a matter of interest, Peter, were the aerials on the Trident tall enough to ID the navaids before takeoff, or did you have to do it hurriedly as you became airborne ?

[petermcleland]

As a matter of interest, Peter, were the aerials on the Trident tall enough to ID the navaids before takeoff, or did you have to do it hurriedly as you became airborne ?

Chris,

Those ones mentioned in the pre-taxi setup would all be identifiable from anywhere at LHR...Clacton VOR would be too far away to identify.

Thanks for the comments chaps...I rather enjoyed opening my old "London SID/STAR BOOKLET Issue 5 EFF 26 SEP 85" and reading the old familiar procedures

I've no doubt that there will have been many changes since then

[jonesey2k]

Peter, that's real mans flying. Not this pansy automatic stuff these days

[Fortiesman]

In real life with the Trident, the SID was flown either manually or on autopilot...However, you could not program the autopilot with the SID and you had to use the autopilot controls to influence the climb to make it level at the necessary altitudes or to leave an altitude and start it climbing again. As far as the lateral navigation was concerned you merely locked the autopilot to the heading index on your compass and then turned the heading index knob on the compass to make the aircraft fly the designated SID track...This was achieved by using the RMI indications for the SID beacon bearings and the beam bar in the compass to fly designated VOR radials.

You just had to have the procedure in your head...Like this for the Heathrow Clacton SID from runway 28R...after take-off...Ahead to intercept Tr 303M (BUR 117.1 123Radial). At LON (113.6)dme 6nms, turn right onto track 059M to CHT (279.0). At CHT right onto Tr 069M to BPK (328.0), then right on Tr 088M to CLN (114.55)...CROSS LON 303R above 3000', CHT above 4000' and BPK AT 5000'.

For this SID you would, before even taxying out, have tuned one of your NAVs to Burnham (BUR 117.1) and the other NAV to London (LON 113.6)...Your ADFs would be tuned to Chiltern (CHT 279.0) and Brookmans Park (BPK 328.0).

So you would not have to tune anything immediately after take-off as it would be all ready done and your next aid to tune would be Clacton VOR (CLN 114.55) and you could do that anytime after you had finished with LON when you had made sure that you had crossed its 303R above 3000'.

In practice ATC would clear you on up to a higher level before you actually levelled at 5000' and you would probably be getting near your cruise level by Clacton.

If you read this post carefully, you will understand how it was done before aircraft had FMCs and on the Trident, in good weather, the SID was most often hand flown by the handling pilot till about 10,000 feet before he bothered to engage the autopilot. In bad weather the autopilot was engaged at about 500 feet.

Phew !!! Thanks Peter. I suspected it was a quick reading of VORS ADF and all those sorts of things that you hardly have enough time to do ! Now i know why the flight sim group fly the Boeings with their FMCs.

In the last day or so I've worked out some sort of compromise so that i don't have those dreaded pop ups- well just this little one!.
I have found that if i use FS Commander and make the flight plan with that, and export it to FSX also- Then I open the FSX same flight plan - BUT do not select the "Route" button whilst loading- , then the little black 2" square part of Commander i have sitting in my lower cockpit and i use the WP function of that to steer with . Keeping the heading and bearing readings as close as possible , i find it keeps me on course. Naturally, as the plane approaches the Navaid as indicated by the "distance from" and "Time to " little windows, the bearing reading moves quickly from the heading reading.
When the Nav aid is reached ( or if passed, click the next symbol ) then align the heading to your bearing reading by using the autopilot.

This way you stay on the flight plan course, and with practice you need not look at the big Commander map to see that you are "following the line ". Importantly, I find that the default ATC virtually leave you alone until it's time to read you down at your destination.!

So, all in all, a partial solution that I find I can live with.

Thanks again Peter for that excellent reply.

FM

[petermcleland]

Well you seem to have got the hang of the system FM...If you are turning knobs and dialling in numbers etc to make the aircraft do everything then you are doing it the way we used to. If you click VNAV and LNAV buttons and let it get on with it, then you are way ahead of where the Trident and Comet were. Don't forget to put in some manual flying...All Trident pilots loved to fly climbs, descents and approaches manually but not the cruise at altitude