Classic British Flight Sim

Hi folks,

I’ve always found this forum to be a wonderful and relaxing arena of interesting information mixed with several large portions of silly humour.

The people on here and their experiences of everyday life make it what it is and I think it’s a great place for advice and guidance.

Therefore I would like to share my current dilemma and request feedback to see what peoples thoughts are.

I’m currently in the recruitment process for becoming a trainee train driver.

Now, the selection process for a trainee train driver is rigorous and the candidates are subject to a number of psychometric tests.

That’s assuming they pass the initial paper sift, which itself whittles approximately 90% of the applicants out.

The tests include the following; a visual comparison test, a concentration test, a rule and procedures test, a memory test, a mechanical comprehension test, a reactions test and a competency based interview.

If you pass all that then it’s onto the final interview with a manager of the rail company for another structured interview.

I was told that on average, for every one driver’s job, there are over 400 applicants!

Earlier this year, I applied to become a trainee train driver and since then have been subject to the assessment process.

Yesterday, I had some fantastic news.

I’ve now passed all the assessments and interviews to a high standard and now face the possibility of an offer of employment within the next few days.

Here’s the dilemma.

I’m currently a Police Officer and have been for the last 13 years. The Police is a very good job that I enjoy and offers great security and also a decent wage.

However, the Police service as an organisation, is currently in a bit of a downward spiral.

As a result of government proposals and lack of funding, the pensions, pay, conditions and promotional prospects are dead in the water.

As you’d expect the morale is on the floor.

Obviously these factors are something that’s on-going right across the public sector.

What I want really is something different - A new and exciting challenge, which funnily enough, is what I said in the manager interview.

Although Police work and Train driving are at opposite ends of the working spectrum, I do find that a number of elements required for both positions do in fact tick the same boxes.

For example, high levels of concentration, working alone for long periods, dealing with the public, following rules/procedures to the letter and of course having to maintain a high standard of professionalism at all times.

So guys, I have the prospect of a new career at my feet, a career I’m really serious about taking on.

Does anyone think I’m mad? If so then your probably right, but I’ve worked hard to pass these assessments and have never been so determined to do this.

I think it takes a lot of bottle to leave a steady and decent job, especially in the current climate. That’s where my minds at currently.

Oh and the fact that a trainee train driver is on about half my current wage for the initial first 12 months or so until qualified. Then the decent money starts.

Also a couple of holidays booked for this year may have to go out the window whilst I’m training. Again, a small sacrifice when you look at the bigger picture.

My wife supports me but obviously because of the potential for not going on holiday, she is grinning through gritted teeth!

Be very keen to hear thoughts from the wise ones.

As always chaps, thank you for your time.

Hi Eddie

Well.. this has come out of the blue (no pun intended)

A couple of things I note from your comments.. primarily about how happy you are with your current job and the security it provides. In all honesty, I don't think you're quite as happy with it as you sound otherwise you'd not have considered looking for something else. I'm a big fan of 'gut' feelings and from what I read.. your gut feelings seem to be to move on.. look back on the good times you've had but the time is right for a change. These 'gut' feelings have always worked for me so the best thing I can recommend is that you go with them. You've plenty of working life left and are a viable candidate for long term investment from your future employers.
What I don't have any idea about is the possible security you'll get from being a train driver. The wife's cousin is a driver with Virgin and he faces an uncertain future due to the current hack-up of the service tenders. He may well end up being employed by the new operators as it's simply not possible to take on something like that with the staff they currently have. I'm sure this is something you'll have thought about and gone into.

I appreciate it can't be easy for you and I've experienced the same myself when I left the Navy. Had I still been married to my first wife.. I'd probably have stayed in the mob to the bitter end as I could escape to sea away from her Still.. I wasn't and a number of things worried me. Looking at the Armed Services Review Bulletins that we used to get.. at 30yo, I was already too old for many of the jobs that were being offered to ex service personnel (and this in 1989) so how bad would it be if I signed on for my final term of 7 years taking me up to 22years mans time?? My reasoning at the time was that if I made a break now..(then of course).. I still had a possible 35years working life left which made me a better employable proposition so, the options were to sign on to complete my 22years service, get promotion in the meantime and end with a nice lump sum and a decent pension but a reduced opportunity for further employment or.. leave after 16years with a pittance but have a good prospect for employment and find a career to end my days. I chose the latter of course and had the world not been dumped into financial crisis in the late 'naughties'.. that plan would have worked perfectly and I'd still be a publican now. However clever or well intentioned you are.. you can't guard against every eventuality

Am I glad I left after 16years.. mostly, yes. My folks were gutted.. they always wanted to see me in Petty Officers rig but when we told them we were going into the pub trade (this while at Lee on Solent).. my dad rolled up his trousers and paddled in the Solent. This was unheard of Now, many years on.. I started at Sainsbury's yesterday and am out on Saturday as a 'buddy' delivery driver. Oddly.. it's something I want to do and not a knee jerk.. go for the first thing that comes up job. The company seem to be excellent. My pay while par for the course won't allow foreign holidays but I don't want any of those and my final Navy passport ran out in 1993 anyway so who cares

In the end.. the decision has to be yours and yours alone. You must, as I've always done, stand or fall by your own decisions and accept whatever the outcome is. Back to 'gut' feelings.. I think you already want to move so if you're sure this is what you want to do.. leave the force on a high and throw yourself full pelt into the new job. Good luck with it

ATB
DaveB

VEGAS wrote:I do find that a number of elements required for both positions do in fact tick the same boxes.

For example, high levels of concentration, working alone for long periods, dealing with the public, following rules/procedures to the letter and of course having to maintain a high standard of professionalism at all times.

A couple of corrections, Eddie. A low standard of professionalism will be fine for a driver and I've yet to see a driver deal with the public in anything but a derogatory manner

Seriously - congratulations on getting this far in what is, as you say, an extremely thorough process. I have my fingers crossed that you do get the well deserved job offer.

So - how can I help? Well, there are two of us here who work on trains, albeit Guards, which is a far more important job than that of driver but we help them out when we can. I've been with First Great Western for 11 years and Nev is with SouthWest Trains so if you've got any specific questions we should be able to come up with a reasonable answer between us. The guard and the driver work the train together as equals, there's no 'chain of command'. We communicate with each other closely about everything to do with the running of the train and help each other out when things go wrong. At my depot there are about 100 train crew split roughly 50/50 drivers and guards working in two shifts and we get to know each other very well so we're well placed to advise you.

A few generalisations to kick off. As you say, a qualified train driver is a pretty well paid job and there always opportunities for overtime and promotion later on. Job security is excellent. There will be a need for train drivers way past the foreseeable future and no set retirement age. There is still a final salary pension and ASLEF is one of the strongest unions in the Country and you would be well protected by them. There are only two things that could lose you your job. Stealing and SPADs. SPAD means Signal Passed At Danger. This is where the concentration comes in. All day long, hour after hour, you're sitting on your own in the cab watching signals coming at you. If your mind drifts and you find yourself coming round a bend and you know there's a signal ahead and you think 'Was that last signal green or yellow?' If it was yellow the next one will be red and you won't have time to stop. You slam the brakes on but pass the red signal by half a train length. Two of those and you'll be out. Or one bad one. There are other less serious infringements which could add up over a few years as well. Exceeding a speed limit even by 2mph could bring on an automatic brake application and a period of suspension. Likewise failing to stop at a station or not stopping at the correct place.

I only mention these things because they do illustrate that the concentration part is forever and you have to work at it all the time. No respite. You do need to be aware of that.

Other than that, swearing, talking about football and eating pies seems to cover most driver's interests.

Let me know if there are any specific things I can help with. I'd say that if you think you can handle the concentration thing then it would be an excellent move although adding a police pension to the salary would mean paying a lot of higher rate tax to the chancellor

Ian

Hi Eddie,

I don't know about Wise ones

You have worked hard at it as you say and it will certainly be different that's for sure, [i'm not being rude here} but your young enough to make a long Career on the Railways and if later on you will be earning more money then Go for it!

Just my two Pennies mind you at the end of the day only you can decide which course to take and weigh up the Pro's and Cons but whatever you do i hope it works out for you and all the best,

Cheers,

Roger.

Go for it mate

You know you want to really and in a couple of years time when you are even more pi$$ed off, will this chance still be there.!!!

I think if you don't, you run the risk of spending the rest of your life wondering "what if".

If again in the future you career change then you will have two previous careers of high standing.

And a lot of life experience too.

ATB

Hi Eddie

What's minimum years service to get pension from the police.
How many years train service before you'd get a pension

The thing is I'd hate to see you loose out on the 13 years you've invested

that's a lot of time 13 years.

Its not an easy decision. Is there any possibility of promotion with the police that could change things up.
Sure it wont be train driving. But you be able to expect more for retirement.

Hi Eddie, I am not going to offer much advise/guidance as you have already received it but as an outsider who works very closely along-side the police and have done so for now 17 years I have seen many changes to the way the police work and new shifts being implemented some good some not so good as you well know!!

The only advice I can give are really suggestions.....Retirement age within the police were set at 55 years of age, even if that were to be extended to say 60 or longer, at that age where do you think you would be? Sat in an office churning through endless amount of paperwork? Even if you did retire at 55 what then? A good pension from the police but the old age pension will not be paid until you are 66 or older so you may need to find another job maybe even finding a part-time one to keep you going financially to proper retirement age and then it may be a job you don't enjoy doing!!

Changing a career is a big step but from what Ian has said, the pay and conditions plus job security are there in the railways and have to be taken into account. Leaving the security of the police is a big decision and depends largely how you see yourself as a serving officer say in 10 - 15 years time, promotion etc.

You have asked for advice and been given it but the decision must be made carefully for once you make your mind up there will be no turning back, your're committed and no doubt which ever decision you make you will always wonder whether it was the right one!!.....Only time will tell but what-ever you do Eddie I sincerely wish you all the very best for the future.

Kind regards
Nigel.

Hi Eddie,

Firstly if you've come this far through the selection process then it is almost certain that your mind is made up, firstly to leave the Police Force and secondly to drive trains (someone has to ). If you changed your mind after this point I doubt that you would settle into your job and you would always be thinking "what if?". Gut feel is to move forward and into a job that you have obviously thought a good deal about - downsides as well as upsides.

As for SPADS - I sit on one of the SPAD reduction groups on the London Underground (we get quite a few!) and can confirm that the number 1 cause of a SPAD is simply a lack of concentration. That said very many drivers never have a SPAD so it's not all doom and gloom.

One word of caution - as is usual what is new and exciting now will quite quickly become mundane and routine. The very best of luck with your decision but before you make the jump think about what you value most in your day-to-day work; if you enjoy predictability and routine (and you will have to) then join the choo choos as a driver but if you don't then look at what other options might be open to you.

Regards,
Chris

Hi chaps

Some very informative and superb responses. Where do I start?

Well firstly regarding the Police Pensions, most of the final pension is accrued towards the end of your service. One third in the first twenty and two thirds in the last ten. It was aimed at keeping people in the job for the longest time. Not sure how the transfer over to a rail pension would work and how much it would equate to.

Furthermore, the latest proposals mean another 5 years added onto your service and paying more in to get less out. A final nail in the coffin for many bobbies like me who are (were) coming up to mid service.

Ian, thank you for a great post. Really helpful advice and I may just be getting into your ribs about the whole rail industry at some point.

It's an environment I know very little about.

Job security is something that always concerns me. The police is a very secure job, as long as I keep a clean record and do everything properly. Which I've always done.

I think most have gathered that my interest lies somewhere else, so whatever the outcome, I will indeed have to live with it.

As its been quite rightly pointed out, if I don't take the opportunity, I know for a fact Ill probably spend forever thinking the 'what if' scenario.

I'm very grateful for the comments fellas.

Morning Eddie. Like you, I knew nothing about the British rail industry before I joined after BA. I can't even remember when I'd been on a train in the UK - it may have been back in the steam days! I saw the job advertised in the local paper a few months after I'd retired. So I went in with a completely blank slate and no preconceptions. It was a bit of a shock as it's a whole parallel universe peopled by an alien race that I'd only ever seen on the telly! The contrast to my previous life was extreme - glamorous it's not!

Rather than bore everybody here with the minutiae of the rail industry, I'll PM you my email address and you can fire questions at me that way. It's probably more useful to your decision making if I paint a realistic picture of the industry and highlight some of the negative aspects so that you're better informed.

Just to clarify the Franchise set up. In a simplified form, the railway is owned by the country and run by the government. The tracks and infrastructure are managed by the not-for-profit Network Rail. The rolling stock is mostly owned by leasing companies who rent it out to the TOCs (Train Operating Companies). The government creates franchise areas, stipulates how many trains they can run and the price of most tickets. The TOCs run the franchise on the government's behalf with little leeway for change and pay the government for the privilege - provided they make a profit. So when a franchise comes to an end obviously the trains continue running. Same trains, same staff, same working conditions, same passengers. I've been through one franchise change from Wessex to First Group and all it meant was a change of uniform and in the longer term a repaint for the trains. The pension is provided by The Railway Pension Scheme which is outside of the TOC and continues whichever TOC you work for. It's one of the last remaining final salary schemes in existence with contributions from the employer and the opportunity to pay AVCs. I don't know whether your Police pension could be incorporated in it in the same way that an industrial pension could. Most ex Police or Military in the job have the two pensions separately and will draw the government one at a certain age.

I'll PM you my email address.

Ian