Human Error Blamed for 2005 Greek Crash

airboatr · Post by **airboatr** » 10 Oct 2006, 15:14

very sad story line of the occurance

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.d ... blsadstrgt

Nigel H-J · Post by **Nigel H-J** » 11 Oct 2006, 15:59

The chances of this type of incident occurence again is hopefully remote, but shows that no matter how experienced pilots are, there will still be the human factor that leads to tragic losses such as this.

I am surprised that (and many will argue the financial costs), airlines do not in some way make provisions for elected cabin crew members to have some hands on experience within the cockpit (simulator) so in the event of any incapacitation of one or two members of the crew they would then be able to assist in whatever way required.

Just an idea, but what is also the price of a human life??

TobyV · Post by **TobyV** » 11 Oct 2006, 17:29

Thats a nice idea Nigel, but short of any Kurt Rusell or Hale Berry type Hollywood stunts, I think any additional "trained" cabin crew "pilots" would have to have almost the same training and skills as an actual pilot themselves, so you might as well say that every aircraft should carry a non flying pilot round, just in case!

This said, I have often wondered how "armchair pilots" such as ourselves would perform in these situations. On the one hand, our lack of 'real' knowledge, skill and experience, particularly with a "fully detailed" (real!) cockpit would be a big handicap. Additionally, the stress and adrenaline associated with such a situation, which we would not be trained fo,r would further impare our already limited abilities.

However, in our favour, unlike the majority of people, we have an idea what all the controls do, what all the instruments are telling us and for particular types of aircraft, a 'ball park' idea of what sort of values these should read under various conditions. A 'feel' for the dynamics of an aircraft are obviously an advantage as obviously is some rudimentary idea of how to communicate with the radio and also to navigate.

I know, espeically to the professional pilots on here, this must sound like madness, but once in a blue moon, passengers might be faced with the situation of all pilots being incapacitated - both this accident and also United flight 93 being to my mind examples of a situation like this. So something for an interesting debate? :think:

Nigel H-J · Post by **Nigel H-J** » 12 Oct 2006, 11:43

Toby, I used to be an avid fan of the Krypton Factor. During these series the competitors (every week) were given the challenge of flying a passenger aircraft (simulator) with a pilot sat next to them. The object of the exercise was that they were marked on their approach (ILS) and of course their landing. They were only given a short familiarisation of the aircraft before being let loose. It was actually quite surprising how many successfully landed the aircraft without mishap.......It was also not surprising how many didn't!!!!

VEGAS · Post by **VEGAS** » 12 Oct 2006, 13:57

Nigel H-J wrote:Toby, I used to be an avid fan of the Krypton Factor. During these series the competitors (every week) were given the challenge of flying a passenger aircraft (simulator) with a pilot sat next to them. The object of the exercise was that they were marked on their approach (ILS) and of course their landing. They were only given a short familiarisation of the aircraft before being let loose. It was actually quite surprising how many successfully landed the aircraft without mishap.......It was also not surprising how many didn't!!!!

I remember it well Nigel. Hosted by a chap called Gordon Burns. I always wanted to have a go in that simulator and have a crack on the assault course. Loved that show. :think:

TobyV · Post by **TobyV** » 12 Oct 2006, 17:25

Nigel H-J wrote:Toby, I used to be an avid fan of the Krypton Factor. During these series the competitors (every week) were given the challenge of flying a passenger aircraft (simulator) with a pilot sat next to them. The object of the exercise was that they were marked on their approach (ILS) and of course their landing. They were only given a short familiarisation of the aircraft before being let loose. It was actually quite surprising how many successfully landed the aircraft without mishap.......It was also not surprising how many didn't!!!!

I do vaguely remember that. I think that programme ceased to be by the time I was about 12, but I do remember watching a program like that occasionally! Again though, it is a simulator in a relatively non stressful situation with some (albeit limited) instruction. In the same way that Jeremy Clarkson can set a time around Laguna Seca comparable with a top racing driver and I can fly inverted under Tower Bridge (well almost

) on a computer, doesnt mean we could jump into the real machines tomorrow and pull that off!

Nigel H-J · Post by **Nigel H-J** » 12 Oct 2006, 17:52

Have to agree with you Toby, just put that in as a point of interest. If they had introduced turbulance, cross winds with gusts and all other factors one can face on approach and landing think they would have found it much harder.

TobyV · Post by **TobyV** » 12 Oct 2006, 17:56

Perhaps, but like Tonks says, "its not real" (until you are really there). Unless you could trick someone into thinking a simulation was real, their mental attitude towards it still wouldnt match how they would cope i nteh real situation.

jonesey2k · Post by **jonesey2k** » 12 Oct 2006, 18:19

Ive allways wondred how I would cope in a real aircraft.

In fact (yes I know this is sad) sometime when flying somewhere as a passenger, Id daydream about that very scenario

airboatr · Post by **airboatr** » 12 Oct 2006, 22:39

jonesey2k
naw I wouldn't say thats too far out there
all of us who sim try to do it as real as we "think"
or imagine it would be to fly a commercial jet
and after hearing story's of similiar circumstances
it's a natural desire to want to be helpful and to
help others and of course save your (our) skin
I mean it does cover our bodys

so I wouldn;t feel to bad about that
however if you were to stand up in the plane and proclaim
your savy piloting sim skills and tell the pilots if there is any problems
I've Got your Back ...... well you know
like the birdy says when he pops out of the clock
Coo coo ....coo coo