European airlines

[paul26may]

Does anyone know whether any European airlines operated internal flights within the British isles during the 60's? For example, say London to Manchester?

[Garry Russell]

They wern't allowed to then

It was hard enough for British Independants to get domestic routes....

[richard/egtd]

This slightly depends on what you mean by "operated flights".

The right to domestic traffic rights [ "Cabotage" ] was, and still generally is, jealousy preserved for the national carriers
of the countries concerned. However, there were certainly a number of instances of flights being operated between UK domestic points
by foreign carriers, but without UK domestic traffic rights - Aer Lingus between Cardiff/Bristol and LHR as part of a service to/from Cork
with F27's, and some Viscount services linking MAN/LIV with BHX for example, as well as regular cargo services operated by European carriers linking LHR/MAN with European cities, and of course Air Canada [ not European ! ] between LHR and PIK and vv.

[PeteP]

However, there were certainly a number of instances of flights being operated between UK domestic points
by foreign carriers, but without UK domestic traffic rights

Yep, "Fifth Freedom" rights under the Chicago Convention allow this.
PP

[NigelC]

The examples Richard gives are actually third and fourth freedoms. Drop or pick up but no traffic rights within UK. Take for instance Air Canada. Flight route Toronto - Prestwick - Heathrow, can carry passengers from Toronto to Prestwick and Toronto to Heathrow but not passengers from Prestwick to Heathrow. Likewise on the return, Heathrow to Toronto passengers and Prestwick to Toronto passengers but not passengers from Heathrow with destination Prestwick. Eighth Freedom would cover those passengers.

Third Freedom - To land in the territory of the first state and disembark passengers coming from the home state of the airline.
Fourth Freedom - To land in the territory of the first state and board passengers travelling to the home state of the airline.

Nigel

[paul26may]

That all doesn't sound quite complicated enough!

[DaveB]

You've said exactly what I was thinking when I read it last night Paul! It reads like a lease document I've just signed.. I didn't understand half of it but signed it anyway

ATB

DaveB

[paul26may]

Reminds me of the John Cleese schoolmaster sketch in the Meaning of Life!

[paul26may]

In fact - how the hell did the pilots work all that out, disembarking here, not letting foreigners off there, not being able to land somewhere else?

[Garry Russell]

Still happens in the CI where services are still regulated

Some airline like Air Southwest pass through Guernsey on the way from Jersey to Plymouth but are not allowed to carry passengers between Guernsey and Jersey if Guernsey is the terminal point of that ticket.

If the person for example was stranded in Jersey on the way to Guernsey on another carrier or by sea they can buy a ticket to Guernsey but not if Jersey was the terminal point on the original ticket.

There are exceptions to this too. If you can prove there were no tickets availible to Guernsey and could only buy one to Jersey, a ticket can be sold as long as you do not officially enter Jersey in which case you are classed as travelling to Guernsey via Jersey.

If you are on a flight that passes through Guernsey you cannot break your journey and re join the flight on another date as that would be classed as an inter island flight. Most pax remain on board in anycase.

An exception to inter island can be made if the licenced carrier agrees....like if they are fully booked.

So in effect a carrier can have a licence to travel from wherever to Guernsey and Jersey but need a seperate licence to carry fares between the islands but they can be carried in special circumstances.