Vanguard Query.

[Tomliner]

I have been getting to grips with this lovely machine(951 and 953 so far) but have a question re engine start.It seems that an engine won't 'fire up' until its associated starting fuel lever is turned off.This is with the HP cock in the open position at about 500rpmLP.The igniter and indicator lights go out at about 2100rpm but there seems to be no ignition until the start fuel lever is closed.The maximum LP rpm reaches about 2117 with the start fuel lever open. I have printed and read the manual.I wondered if it has anything to do with the CH yoke which I use.
Once the fuel lever is switched off,the engine starts ok .Cheers EricT

[DaveB]

Hi Eric..

Unfortunately, FS can't accurately duplicate the Vanguards 'dual' start. If you pop outside to look at the props when you have the engines in low ground beta (start) they're not turning even though they would be on the real one with LP rpm showing around what you're seeing.. 2117 +/-. Frasers 'deception' is a good one
RW.. you hold the start lever up (or down for restart) for 2 seconds and the start routine takes over giving 10secs of automatic 'wind up' to get the required 2000+ HPRPM before the HP cocks are opened. After 10secs.. the orange lamp will extinguish even though the start/safe switch on the starting panel is at start. This was often something forgotten on our startups though a clue would be that you could hear the ignitors firing in the headsets AND outside

So.. there you have it. The panel does as much as it can within the limitations of FS to simulate the real start routine giving the impression it's doing what it should be doing even though startup sounds are missing and the props remain still

ATB
DaveB

[Tomliner]

Thanks Dave.Copy what you said re the limitations in fs.I just wondered if a) I had mis-read or mis understood something or b) it was a CH yoke problem.
Despite this, I love the engine sounds of the RR Tyne on the Vanguard and the Dart on the Viscount and 748. EricT

[DaveB]

Rgr that Eric.. in this case, It's not a foible of the CH Yoke (which doesn't have any foibles as I remember.. at least mine doesn't)

No.. it's a shame you can't hear what you should be hearing because with the engines running in low ground beta (Start/OFF switch still in Start).. sh1t is happening and the old girl is making plenty of noise as well as vibrating gently. The 'real' fun starts when you switch from Start to OFF when the engines wind up to 11500rpm +/- and the Tynes give their distinctive Vanguard howl. Fraser nailed these pretty darned well.. the only difference between his sounds and the real ones being my speakers don't go loud enough

I'm not sure how many other dual start aircraft there are but the Vanguard is the only one I know of in FS. Tks to FM.. it's as good as it can be

ATB
DaveB

[Garry Russell]

Most modern TP start on low ground then wind up after a bit, but I don't know if this is modelled in FS

Some like the ATR and Dash Eight go to a low ground before shutdown too.

Those types start with the props in feather which goes to fine as it winds up so they're not really like the Vanguard

[Tomliner]

I remember so well,before the days of fs,hearing that Tyne sound at East Mids as another ABC,Elan or Hunting Cargo Vanguard accelerated down the runway.Magic.EricT

[DaveB]

Some like the ATR and Dash Eight go to a low ground before shutdown too

As does/did the Vanguard too mate though granted.. not for any great length of time At Brooklands, we used to let them settle so perhaps our time at low ground was a little longer than when in service but procedurally.. the shutdown sequence goes throttles to ground idle.. fuel to START.. HP Cocks OFF

ATB
DaveB

[Garry Russell]

Hi mate..yes briefly like the Dart winds down a bit before shutdown, but in service the Vanguard was seconds where as the Dash/ ATR is perhaps a minute or so and I don't remember the Vanguards going all the way down to low ground for any noticeable time...in service.

Bear in mind I last saw a Vanguard start was in 1976 and the last time I saw one shut down was 1973

The ATR is interesting as after the low ground on shutdown with the starboard engine, it stops the prop and keeps the engine running for some minuets as an APU until the ground power is plugged in and humming along.

[DaveB]

An APU.. that's cheating

I've no doubt your memories of the Vanguard shutdown are correct as this is how PEP is shutdown in the old film of the Belfast/Coventry flight We extended the procedure a bit to a) let the engines settle and the oil do less work and b) we liked to have the engines running! If only we'd have had a GPU...

ATB
DaveB

[Garry Russell]

The other difference between BEA and Airbridge was they started 4321 an from what I've seen on ids AB started all four on low the wound them up and the sequence 3421

BEA would start 4 an as that got going 3 would start to turn slowly and as soon as that was moving 2 would start slowly and 4 would wind up and then as 2 started to stabilise 1 would start slowly 3 would wind up and as one stabilized two would wind up followed immediately by 1.

It's as if the ground low was shorter as they moved along as if they were busy until the last one which was zipped up quickly.

It was a starting mishap that caused G-APEO to be converted to a Merchantman at Southend.

I went aboard G-APES to have a look round in 1968 and I asked the pilot why the engines started that way. He explained and added that if you got it wrong you could burn out the engine. He then said that that had recently happened to 'EO and it had been flown to Southend on three engines to be repaired by Aviation Traders who would convert it to a freighter at the same time...

Whether there was always going to be two converted by ATL or this was an extra I don't know, but all the others were BEA converted with supplied kits.

Don't know which engine was blown but I'd put money on #1