Human Error Blamed for 2005 Greek Crash

Stewart Pearson · Post by **Stewart Pearson** » 13 Oct 2006, 01:27

With reference to the cabin crew/pilot discussion a recent documentary on the incident reported that the Steward, seen on the flight deck by the HAF F-16 pilots, was apparently a student pilot in his own right, although I don't think he was far along on the learning curve.

From what I could understand (sorry I wasn't glued to the TV) the aircraft had taken off and flown on AP until shortly before the crash, when it was then flown manually, (poss by the steward?) but ran out of fuel.

Begs the question on the fuel reserve being carried.

Stewart

cstorey · Post by **cstorey** » 18 Oct 2006, 23:31

Unhappily there was a UK incident not too dissimilar about 10 years ago when a Kingair suffered an oxygen failure after a pressure leak and both pilots became unconscious. It seems hard to believe, but those who have suffered anoxia ( I haven't) say that the feeling of euphoria which precedes total incapacitation makes it very difficult for the crew themselves to recognise the deteriorating situation which they face. The Kingair eventually was shot down by the Navy off the Scillies or Ushant. What the real mystery about this tragedy is, is how there was still another person conscious when the crew were unconscious

Post by **Garry Russell** » 18 Oct 2006, 23:42

There was also a Lear Jet (I think) or some small exec jet that was tracked in a straight line before it ditched with the crew apparently unconscious through depressurisation.

The RAF followed it to see that if it was to go down it did so over the sea off Scotland

Garry

speedbird591 · Post by **speedbird591** » 19 Oct 2006, 09:18

http://www.airsafe.com/stewart.htm
1999, Golfer Payne Stewart was killed when his Learjet ran out of fuel with everybody unconscious through lack of oxygen.

I think I've told this one before: On the FD of a 744 in cruise, trying to explain to the Captain how real FS was :roll: . He asked if I could look after it while he went to the loo. "Yeah, no problem. Just show me where the pause button is."

Perhaps Boeing should consider fitting one as a safety back up. Then you might hear an emergency announcement along the lines of: If there is a FS 2004 pilot on board, could they make themselves known to the cabin crew

Do you have a PMDG rating, sir? Thank the gods - we're saved!

Ian

Post by **Garry Russell** » 19 Oct 2006, 09:45

Don't forget the unlimited fuel function :dance:

I can just imagine that, a fully laden 747 and both pilots unconcious.

So FS Man grabs the controls and makes a perfect landing at Heathrow......but not until he's made a couple of passes under Tower Bridge inverted :think:

Garry

speedbird591 · Post by **speedbird591** » 19 Oct 2006, 10:25

Garry Russell wrote:Don't forget the unlimited fuel function :dance:

But that only raises the problem of running out of food, Garry.

After circling the globe twenty three times, the passengers of stricken flight 666 have started eating the bodies of those who have starved to death. Microsoft are frantically working overtime to bring out a patch that will enable in-flight re-victualling.

If I can stop giggling long enough

- here's some real life stuff about cabin crew flying aircraft.

BA obviously have a Pilot Incapacitation procedure, but it only allows for one pilot to be unwell. Cabin Crew are trained how to remove a (drunk, drugged, broken?) pilot from his seat and drag him out to the galley to have his face slapped or whatever. A Cabin Crew member would then sit in the spare seat (if requested by the operating pilot) and read out the checklists. Hence we were trained to operate the seats, harnesses, emergency oxygen, emergency lights and evacuation alarm, DV windows and how to evacuate from the Flight Deck. Otherwise we were not allowed to touch anything. It's happened a couple of times on shorthaul (notably when Tim Lancaster was laying on the roof of the One-Eleven - but the crew member was too busy holding on to his legs to read checklists!) but on longhaul there always seems to be spare pilots around (Tokyo flight a few years back when the Captain died in his sleep and a relief FO helped land the flight).

It raises the question of why the Cabin Crew member on the Helios a/c was not on emergency oxygen. Perhaps he had been, which was why he was still conscious, but it had run out. There's only a 20 minute supply if everybody's using it.

I believe the 737 cabin pressure warning uses the same horn as the aircraft configuration warning and that when it sounded during the climb, it was cancelled. The pilots may have assumed that it was triggered by flap retraction and did a cursory config check as they would have been familiar with the sound in that context but not in the other.

Ian

Post by **Garry Russell** » 19 Oct 2006, 10:51

Interesting Ian

Paper procedure is one thing.........but how do you drag a six foot 14 stone lump of dead weight form a seat in the confines of a cockpit without knocking levers and switches if you can even shift him?

Can you drop the seat back and pull him by the epaulets? (sounds painful)

Garry

speedbird591 · Post by **speedbird591** » 19 Oct 2006, 10:56

Garry Russell wrote:Can you drop the seat back and pull him by the epaulets? (sounds painful)

You're on form today, Garry!

The seats are on L shaped runners and slide a long way backwards and out from the centre consoles - and of course the armrests lift. It was recognised that it might take two people to lift a more portly pilot!

Ian

airboatr · Post by **airboatr** » 19 Oct 2006, 16:39

you bet they'd ax for a FS9 Simmer
by now they too know a FSX simmer
wouldn't be compatible.